I am not a pedophile, but my grandparents were and we've had a tragic life, our family, as a result of it. However, this type of behavior is nonsense. We're all responsible for the pedophiles out there because pedophilia is a shadow over our society, not just an individual problem, with complex roots and causes. If you ever want to grow up, practice this: I am bound to love my enemy--what greater enemy than the pedophile?

Ithink this site is very exellent i believe that the e=mc2 theory is absolutely correct and i like this site because perverts are bad. that is all.

yo iam the gangsta of this palace of perverts...........stoppers i have a dream and that si to make a palace out of perverts and paint them so thell shut up and have there thighs be removed ha ha ha ha ha

the pj site is very biased. I used to be a avid follower of that site and it's forums... I even posted a bunch of captured chats I had with the perverts, helping in the followup process.

I know that they scout out potential "busts". I set up a false screen name and when into some local regional chat rooms where i recognized some of their screen names that they use for busting people. They initiated a chat with me... not just initiated but started by saying things like, "my parent's aren't home", "I'm a virgin and very curious", "my daddy doesn't live with me", "I've seen my mommy and her boyrfriend do it".

When I confronted them with this information, they banned me from the forums. A day later, me and a friend signed in and checked out the forums... in the General Discussion section, they were talking about this former contributor that tried to set them up. They even had plans to hack my account and post personal information of me all over chat rooms.

This site is so fucking corrupt... if you don't bow down and take it in the poopshoot for them, then you're against them and they will treat you like one of their perv busts. Warning: STAY AWAY FROM THIS SITE!!!!

Hey pj is corrupt. You're a damn chicken for not even leaving your real name. You deserved to be banned. If you have something to say, come to the pj site again. Post your personal information. I'm sure we can arrange for a conference or some house calls. Don't bash something you have NO IDEA about. It's deeper than you know. You sound like you're a PERVERT supporter. Perhaps we should expose YOU!

easy children

I see. "BITE ME" is a real name then. None of the PJ's secret agents have real names. LOL. What with 100s of aliases that multiply on a daily basis, who knows who is really a so-called PJ contributor and who isn't. Speaking of real names, the PJ site is a sham from the get-go. A check on a whois search revealed that incomplete, missing and fraudulent information was given on all the domain registrations to the registrar Register.Com, one of the worlds largest Domain Registrar.

Why would someone who has a dissenting view need to be subjected to a conference or house calls? Is this still America?

December 22, "pj is corrupt" stated "then you're against them and they will treat you like one of their perv busts". Now "BITE ME" says "You sound like you're a PERVERT supporter. Perhaps we should expose YOU!". Wow, truth is stranger than fiction.

Hey pj is corrupt. You're a damn chicken for not even leaving your real name. You deserved to be banned. If you have something to say, come to the pj site again. Post your personal information. I'm sure we can arrange for a conference or some house calls. Don't bash something you have NO IDEA about. It's deeper than you know. You sound like you're a PERVERT supporter. Perhaps we should expose YOU!

This is a fine example of the typical pj "supporter". If things don't go their way, they use threatening and "strong arm" tactics to persuade people and instill fear so they'll do whatever they want. Ya want my real name, there it is... at least the name that I was under when I was in the pj forums. I also know more that you probably think I know about pj and I definately know more than I want to know after being a contributor and member of that site for so long. The true colors of that site "exposed" themselves and it's only a matter of time before that site will be taken down.

In one last note, no I'm not a previous bust or whatever you want to believe... what happened to me was totally and utterly pj's fault... I didn't "get busted" in a yahoo chat room. I was simply stating that I was tired of my posts in forums getting deleted and other members that are "on the inside" getting special treatment and favortised... when I decided to speak my mind, I was banned from the site. Still banned to this day.

I don't have any regrets towards my honest posts in these forums about what I've experienced during my time with these vigilantes. So bite me, since that is your real name, you can take this back to the forum site, and post it for everyone to troll about.

PJ is a catch-22.

I started following the site because I thought that they were really doing a service to the community...and in some cases they really are (the cases where a time and place is set up, and the person shows up for some underage companionship; that is wrong).

I started realizing a few things about the site over time:

[1] As some others have said, if you are not with them, you are against them. They claim you can speak your mind in their forums, but the reality is that if you disagree with any of their ideals, they label you a pedophile.

[2] They really seem to *enjoy* posing as children. Really. The only thing that most of them enjoy more is being able to swear non-stop and ruin lives. It is quite childish. And, they really do seem to promulgate the discussions; it would not surprise me if they initiate them as well. There are a LOT of megalomaniacs on that site for sure! Another thing, they never show you the pictures they use to lure people into conversations, although in almost every chat log the person says that they look much older than "x". The caller verification is done by adults that they say are "young" sounding. This is a house of cards in my opinion.

[3] They go to great lengths to let you know that they condemn harassment - to the point where they have an automated Word Edit bot that changes any occurence of "harass" to "contact". So, what they are really doing is acknowledging that their people do, in fact, harass...so they change the words that their people use (!?) Cheeky.

[4] They hide behind their screen names; to the point where the site owner has actually changed his name (at least in common use anyway). It is one thing to destroy lives out in the open; but anonimity means that if (when) they post the wrong person, they will scurry like roaches in light. There is no accountability.

[5] The whole site is basically run by a child (in his early 20's) who seems to be more interested in professional wrestling than anything else. LOL

So, in my mind it is a catch-22. They are doing a service some of the time I believe; other times they are ruining lives of people who are sitting across a computer screen in a fantasy world. The glee they take in ruining people's lives to me discredits them. There is no glee in that. They just enjoy the thrill of the chase. Some right results; some wrong results; mostly wrong reasons.

If this was posted on their site, they would label me a pedophile (which is laughably far from the truth). This fact, in and of itself, makes them a menace.

Hey curious,

1.) I've disagreed with others in the forums and didn't get banned or labled as a pedo. Maybe you are just special.

2.) And how did you arrive at the conclusion that they enjoy posing as childern? Sounds like a wild unfounded accusation. How fair of you.

3.) I've used the word harassment in a post and it always came up harassment. Why is that?

4.) They hide behind screen names? What do think "screen name" means? I have not seen the site owner EVER change his screen name. He has shortened it to the initials, but so have others on the net. (Sounds like we have a felony here folks!!)

5.) Wrong again, he's not in his early 20's.

BTW Leslie is my first name, I'm sure yours is not curious. How's that hon? If you're looking for first, last, home address, and SS# you can forget it!

Hey, Leslie,

1) No. Don't just disagree with "others" - who are just armchair witch-hunters like yourself. Try disagreeing with some of the site's moderators about their mission & tactics. Speak with ex-PJ contributors who were part of their cult until they ran afoul with some questions and concerns. PJ routinely bans IP addresses and turf user IDs.

2) AngryGerman (AKA Xavier Van Erck) and his pals have been posing as little girls BEFORE the PJ website came into existence. They are proud of that, and info comes from their own bios. Do some homework before assuming the best of these deviants. They get a thrill at fooling people. It's a power trip, a way to fulfill sexual fantasies while appearing to do something worthwhile. Same with other contributors. They sit through lewd conversations, sometimes watching webcam. Then the end they say something like "ewwww, I almost lost my lunch", or "I couldn't sleep that night. Sure they couldn't. They're too busy surfing more smut chat rooms.

3) No you haven't used the word "harassed" and had it stand. Look at your post now - after the fact. Unless their automated "politically correctifier filter" has broken down. They say they don't condone harassment of any kind. What they mean is, they don't condone the use of the word. Real harassment continues unabated.

4) Yes they do hide behind screen names. 100s of them. I found a list of PJ baiters IDs here: http://www.geocities.com/stop_vigilante_justice/pjbaitlst.html . The sheer numbers of IDs are overwhelming and that list is over a month old. We aren't talking about the site owner's screen name changing. He remains in the background letting his clones do the work. Oh and speaking about hiding behind screen names - "...all domains associated with a vigilante group headed by fictitious individual by the name of Xavier Von Erck.  A check on a whois search revealed that incomplete, missing and fraudulent information was given on all the domain registrations to the registrar Register.Com, one of the worlds largest Domain Registrar." Oooopsie.

5) Not in early 20's? Well he's 24 as of 2003. Unless his birthday was in January, he's still 24. Maybe we'll call it mid-20's then. Whoooptee do.

Hey PJ Buster I'm not a contributor nor do I do follow-ups so calling me an armchair witch-hunter is more than a little off the mark and not to mention just plain rude. Kind of makes the whole discussion thing distasteful.

Well... plenty of people here have their minds firmly made up and that's fine. Personally if PJ stops just one person from molesting an innocent child thats just fine with me.

Leslie, I empathise with your stance, and I agree with a lot of it. The idea of keeping pervs away from children is HIGHLY desirable. This is why I prefaced my comments with this is a "Catch-22".

I have a problem in that if PJ ever does get it wrong (well, they get a lot of stuff wrong...they constantly post incorrect info on leads, but they somehow make it OK to themselves to post this info - that has largely been harvested in dubious fashions by internet bots and placed in databases - by saying it is UNCONFIRMED), then they will scurry like roaches in the light. They will NOT, IMHO, stand up, present themselves, and take the responsibility for the error (which can, and likely will, ruin an innocent life). This is my opinion.

Oh, PJ has many checks and balances so that they do not make mistakes, you say? Well, so do airlines, but airplanes still crash. And they are more professional than this website.

The Follow-Up forum is largely rubbish. They are posting info about INNOCENT people by and large, that any psycho from the internet THAT HAS AN AGENDA is now privy to. Yes, your info might be out there anyway, but when a site like PJ posts it (UNCONFIRMED or not), they are making it a target. This is so wrong on many levels.

So, does the end justify the means? I think this perv-busting is better left to professionals, who can stand ACCOUNTABLE to the public if they screw up (i.e. they are paid by taxpayers). A bunch of vigilantes who hide behind their screen names with no accountability to the public is extremely dangerous. You say that there are not enough resources to hire professionals to do the job? I say "GO OUT AND VOTE".

Leslie,

I'm glad you feel that being lumped in with the rest of the hooded vigilantes at PJ is an abhorrent prospect. I apologize for assuming you are one of them. You haven't addressed points two through five, so i will assume I rebutted them successfully.

They have zero checks and balances. They rely on the weasely "out clause" that the forum section is not under their control. X-boy even bumbles through a legal precedent citing the Zeran Protection which would grant immunity from any damage arising out of contributor-based content. Even this has been rebutted elsewhere. Smokescreen aside, the desired effect of the PJ collective is that the primary static pages where the chats are first posted and the dynamic forum are a cohesive force that outs pedophiles. Even if there are no direct links from the chat bust to the relevant follow up. Nor are there links pointing backward. This is all legal slight-of-hand and quite deliberate. The 100s of PJ lemmings that do the legwork, the reverse lookups and such, form and feed a self-sustaining mob mentality. The entire PJ concept hinges on these loose cannons. Checks and balances?

It's interesting that shamed individuals who do not take PJ to court is somehow construed as proof that PJ is operating within the law. We read conflicting views: Xavier (AngryGerman) said "fine if they sue me, I have nothing to to lose", vs. contributor groupies who say "Xavier is putting his ass on the line... he's got a lot to lose". The degree of hero worship within that site is sickening.

What a bunch of Wanks.

Go get em PJ.

I must say that when I first heard about the site (which was on Chicago news) I was a bit skeptical. I even saw a few busts that I felt were wrong. But I admit that is because of my own ignorance. I have told many of the contributors concerns of mine and we worked together so we both understood where we were coming from. I encourage anyone on here to visit PJ and look at the busts. I have some of the most vulgar things I ever saw in my life. Police depatments, and news groups are very aware of what is going on at PJ,if anything they were doing was illegal believe me they would not be up and running. I actually was wathching the news and the chief of th police department wanted to start working with Pj. I truly feel that many of you have mis conceptions about what PJ does. I'm not a contributer but I post on the site.I take offence to being called a vigilante, how would you like one of these dirtballs after your child/neice. I think many of you need to actually look at the facts before opening your mouths. BTW- if you can't find the facts I'll gladly get them for you. Pedophilia is an uncurable disease much like alcoholism, it's not something that you can be treated for rather it is something that the pedophilia must take control over. Oh and since some you seem to be so knowledgeable, I actually work in this area I can send you many pamphlets and studies done on this disease.
Anne-That's my real name....

PJ Buster- The agents at Pj must pose as children because unfortunately the scumbags we deal with their are looking for children You are twisted for thinking this is enjoyable. But you know what is enjoyable when those dirty bastards show up to have sex with aminor they are instead greated normally by men. I think you have had a personal problem with the site and I'd like to know what it was. You are completely out of line and talking out of your ass. Many of the PEDOPHILES busted are repeat offenders, and many times the police do become involved by the community contacting them. I think you need to shut your pie hole and look into the fact, beyond what you want to see. I have dealt with many corporations, where the pedophiles worked and guess what they were FIRED you know why BECAUSE WHAT WE DO IS LEGAL. You really need to shut your pie hole, and start backing up your opinoins with FACTS. Because I have the facts. Ignorance from people like you drives me crazy.

I think this is a great site. I live in Kansas City, and they just did an investigation piece on the news where they had this site set up a meeting with a "wanna be pedophile" and then they got several news cameras waiting behind the door. The men's excuses were disgusting - one guy claimed to be "spreading the gospel" even though they had conversations with him and his picture, phone #, etc.

Also, who cares if they start the conversations, like "pj is corrupt" said. A man should be able to say no. If a woman walked up to my boyfriend or husband on the street and offered sex, he'd better say no.

Anyway, if any of you out there (who think it's a bad site) have been molested, raped, abused, etc. you'd understand why it is a good site. If men (and some women) weren't so sex obsessed, our world would be a lot better. So if I was a man who liked having sex with teenagers, and I knew this site was out there, I'd probably think twice about finding victims in a chatroom anymore, and that is the whole point of the site - to stop internet sex predators.

Anne,
No, I would not want a dirt-ball after my child/niece. Also, my child/niece would not be 13 and brag about having had sex with a lot of older men in their 20s, so that she could repeat that experience with any stranger that comes along on the chat room. You should read the chat logs again but you've already made up your mind. It's manipulation and entrapment of the worst kind. No I do not need to be sent brochures & studies on pedophilia. Maybe you should read them yourself - real sexual predators get to know their child victims for months, even years. Not a 1/2 hour chat. Real pedophiles initiate contact, initiate phone calls - not the other way around where the so-called "child" calls him as in EVERY one of PJ's busts. The people being baited do not exhibit the behavior of real pedophiles - they are just chatting. You make the same mistake so many people do - jump to conclusions. Since you work "in this area", heaven help us all. You seem to be predisposed to think the worst of anyone using lewd language ("worst vulgar things"). Welcome to the internet, where nothing is what it seems.

Yes indeed the baiting is enjoyed by these PJ'ers. It's a power trip, and it's "payback time" for some of the contributors who have had traumatic child-abuse done to them. They are not objective. You say many of the PEDOPHILES busted are repeat offenders. It is a fact that PJ has not re-busted a single properly convicted pedophile, nor that any have been charged and convicted subsequent to PJ's work. PJ operates strictly outside of legal channels, and is proud to continue in that vein. They shun media & 1st contact police exposure. I wonder why. You have dealt with corporations where pedophiles worked? In what capacity? Employee? Or you called them up to get people fired? Please look into the reasons people get fired. Reasons such as misuse of computers during company time (a typical catch-all) - which ironically many PJ'ers are guilty of themselves. I don't think "talking out of your ass" and "shut your pie hole" are constructive. Those are personal insults and demonstrates the level of hatred and prejudice that permeate PJ's operation.

Elizabeth,
"Who cares if they start the conversation"... interesting. This is the main point PJ uses to remain above-board. I guess it doesn't matter now. I would agree that if the PJ site had the side-effect of stopping real sexual predators from finding teenage victims, it would be a good thing. But judging by the level of sexually aggressive language the PJ baiters routinely use, I'd say the real victims are the hapless & bored men who chat and are suckered into remaining on the line to see where the conversation leads.

Elizabeth,

For your information entrapment is defined as telling an alledged suspect about the evidence collected at a scene and how it was used in the commision of a crime to get them to confess to the crime in question. PJ is in no way using entrapment.

Clearly PJ has developed a system that is effective for catching people who are intending to commit a crime, quite possibly the only way to catch people who intend to commit this specific crime without endangering children.

However where are the fail safes, where are the checks and balances? Furthermore who is monitoring, reviewing, and storing the logs of these conversations? What is to keep someone from editing the logs, what is to keep someone from posting a entirely fraudulent report?

I agree with the guidlines they have set up as follows, they use non-adult-only chatrooms to bait, they do not initiate contact, they phone and meet there targets before they post them, and they allow right of reply.

However what proof is supplied that they are following these guidelines? I don't see any proof that these guidelines are being strictly enforced. I only hope goverment established law enforcement takes over before this weapon is turned on a innocent target and misused.

--------------------------------------------------
What follows is a seemingly pointless rant that best describes my biased view, it does not need to be read.

(sarcasm>
I got drunk once, I am a alcoholic. I know some scientific terminology, I am a doctor.
</sarcasm)

I was moleseted at the age of 6. I consider my sexual prefrences perverted from the mainstream of America, I am not a pedophile. I have had sexual propositions over the internet from people claiming to be underage, multiple times, and have never agreed to telephone or meet anyone. I had to tell many of the people propositioning me no 6 or 7 times over periods as long as 2 months, during that period they would often send me explicit messages that were not initiated by me. These propositions not only have taken place in chatrooms but in mainstream online videogames as well. I have talked dirty before "cybersex" in ADULTONLY chatrooms. To the best of my knowledge I have never been "busted" on a site such as PJ. I am a male in my mid twenties who plays way to many video games.

People who give out personal information over the internet to someone they do not know in real life are either ignorant or foolish. People who think they can know and trust someone without knowing them, the company, or the reputation are equally ignorant or foolish. (Look closely at that last sentance, hint: it is directed in reference to two groups of individuals in this case)

Hopefully this will open some parents eyes about the dangers of the internet, hopefully this will show the cops how to properly do the job, hopefully congress will look into this, hopefully someone the public knows and trusts will take over before the defamation suit hits.

Crimes are clearly being commited against children using the internet as a weapon, someone has developed a good system to fight those crimes. I support the work and the method but sadly in the case of PJ, not the people.
-------------------------------------------------

I spent over a hour writing and reviewing this I apologize for the length and the jumpy thought proccess, I take what I consider a dangerous stance in this article, I hope you concur.

Thank you for letting me waste your time while I got my voice on.

Where did PJ go? I went to recheck a story and it isn't there anymore.

Any info?

The link at the top of this page works.

This was posted by PJ buster:
I don't think "talking out of your ass" and "shut your pie hole" are constructive. Those are personal insults and demonstrates the level of hatred and prejudice that permeate PJ's operation.

Earlier PJ Buster posted this:
Don't just disagree with "others" - who are just armchair witch-hunters like yourself.

WHO is demonstrating a level of hatred and prejudice??

Leslie

Witch-hunters / baiters / entrappers / stalkers / vigilantes - these are terms to describe the collective behavior of PJ and its followers, and you may agree or disagree. Using language such as "talking out of your ass" and "shut your pie hole" are profanities. Surely you can see a difference. I believe in a forum such as this many opinions are welcome. I would not tell you to shut your pie hole just because we disagree. If you want to shout me down in this manner instead of debating intelligently, then I will no loner respond to any points you make.

easy children.

I don't understand how some of you people can actually sympathize with these twisted individuals, by saying that they were "baited", and that it's not exactly their fault since the "teenage girl" said she has sex with men in their twenties. OH...that makes it legal and permissable. That's just sick...how could you even BEGIN to try to make excuses for them? As for somebody saying their children or niece wouldn't be on the chat site anyways...how do you know? Everyone wants to live in this fantasy world where they are the perfect parents, with the perfect children...Fact of the matter is, children, (that would be a 13 year old) are very impressionable and easily influenced whether you want to admit it or not, whether they are yours or not. If you want to dispute that then you are clearly in denial.
I am so passionately for this site because my mother was a victim of a pedophile...her own father, for 12 years...and yes, he molested children he did not know as well. He was a monster, and I can just imagine the kind of sick, sick, perverted hayday he would have had, had todays technology been available to him.
I don't care how "baited" you are...any normal person would just ignore a user who claimed to be underage, let alone significantly underage.
Let them live in their little fantasy worlds huh? How about they live their little fantasy through someone who is OF AGE? It is not normal to fantasize about little girls. Hell, I didn't even got my period till I was 14! These are sick, evil people, and I can't help but think that if you try to dispute that, it's just plain and simple sympathy for the Devil.

"...saying that they were "baited", and that it's not exactly their fault since the "teenage girl" said she has sex with men in their twenties". So we are to supposed to dismiss such slutty behavior, or at the very least assume it's fantasy chat on her part, yet make the assumption anything the adult says is automatically real and carries intent.

"As for somebody saying their children or niece wouldn't be on the chat site anyways...how do you know?" I'm not saying kids don't go onto chats. I'm saying kids who have had reasonable parenting would NOT have had sex with people twice their age and then brag about it to perfect strangers, like the PJ baiters do. This is a scenario that might be possible, but does not ferret out real sexual predators who prey on innocence.

Remember these are adult (college aged punks or embittered women with man-hating agendas reliving their innocence) fantasizing being underaged teens, carrying on explicitly sexual conversations and all the while mocking and giggling behind the wanna be's back. You don't find that disturbing in any way? You don't see this site as a haven for closet pedophiles living out their own twisted, sick, perverted fantasies - then feigning disgust at the end to wash their hands and to garner support for their cause? You say "It is not normal to fantasize about little girls". How about fantasizing about BEING little girls on a daily basis for hours on end. How sick and evil is that?

I know it would be rather sick to talk to a child like that for ANY reason. But haven't any of you talked in a chat room and misrepresented yourselves? Once I pretended I was a single person again and chatted with someone. Mind you we were both adults (I would assume) and I was able to cut off the conversation once it became uncomfortable.

I think the PJ people are running a fine line here. They do brag about flooding people with emails, calls and other various forms of intimidation. They talk about sending mailers to the neighbors and posting things around the neighborhood. They have had the wrong person before. I think it would serve a better purpose if they were able to work with law in the area and instead of just having people write the Right of Reply with words that may mean nothing, actually either have people face criminals charges or therapy.

Yes, Meg. Fantasy in chats is commonplace. We may regard any references to underaged persons - the baiter or the baitee as sicko. But heck, it's not real. PJ'ers make the leap that the adult's chat is real, and thus they proceed to ruin the person's job, family life, etc. It goes beyond phone-calls and neighborhood flyers to defame. It extends seamlessly to real vandalism and personal threats - from 100s of uncontrolled, anonymous, and possibly pre-adolescent PJ lemmings who follow along on the forums. The actual PJ contributors distance themselves by this point - because they know they are on shaky legal ground.

It's not "PJ may go over the fine line one day" - it's they are doing so on a daily basis.

The RoR (right of reply) is but another bait-and-switch, whereby the victim is given the impression his personal information be removed and harassment will stop if he submits to self incrimination. Nothing about PJ is sincere. It's all about vengeance. Not doing anything positive.

But you and I both know that no matter how rational we try to debate this, someone will scream "won't somebody please think of the children" - and we're all supposed to feel like pedophiles for not falling lock-step into PJ's methods.

I would think most of us would find the people who actually showed up to have sex with a minor to be beyond defense as to the accusations made, at least I know I do.

The problem is this group of vigilantes operates on "guidelines" and not rules. The diffrence being a guideline is a recommended course of action and a rule being something that makes or breaks a bust. In otherwords regardless of what course of action you think they are taking in reality they are doing whatever they feel like.

Which leads to this statement which was made earlier in this discussion: "any normal person would just ignore a user who claimed to be underage". This may come as a surprise but there are actually men ages 18-70 who can have a non sexual conversation and frankly I don't think males from the age of 18 and up should have to live in fear of every l33thax0r gamer they cross summoning up a entourage of Mcarthiysts to do whatever they can to setup a person to be publicly ridiculed.

Now granted this would not be an issue if they operated on any kind of rules of engagement, but the simple fact is they research by guidelines alone, guidelines which can be followed or broken whenever the advocate of the site feels like it.

If you look into the forums of there site you can see some of the very important and serious issues and yes some of the people they feature of very serious threats to society. While you are there you can also see the thread where they post the phone number to the legal council of one of the busts from the KCTV5 news/PJ sting operation. They are laughing about how they called it so many times that his lawyer just answered the phone with "$%#^ you" when he grew sick of the harrassment.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I would say a mutually arranged meeting between a sexually promiscuous kid and an adult, where the kid chatted at length planning sex acts in detail, the kid encouraged the adult to bring booze, pot & condoms, the kid telephoned the adult, where the kid gave explicit instructions to her home address... in no way convinces me that the people who do show up are serious threats to society at large.

Interesting point about rules vs. guidelines. We are told that PJ operates under a strict code, that their operatives are rigorously screened and trained. Trouble is we are never shown this document of rules of conduct, if it even exists. Where there are no rules of engagement made public, we are told to take their word for it. The diverse behavior of the PJ agents seems to point towards a lack of cohesive vision. We are mere observers of what PJ allows us to see. Their warm and fuzzy reassurances of internal structure are all hearsay.

If someone shows up at a house with the verbal expressed intention of having sex with a minor that is clearly intention to commit statutory rape, regardless of your ethical view. There is no defense against that except the possibility of a entirely fraudulent report, which is not impossible especially in the case of citizen informants, but I consider it to be highly unlikely in this case considering the sheer amout of evidence supplied. You might find yourself hard pressed to find someone who disagrees. The result for these intentions is punishment. Is that punishment fitting? Whole nother discussion which is only some what relevant to my objection.

I don't want to see the rules or whatever the method is, that would be reverse productive to their vision. The problem is that they have NO RULES. They have guidlines which are not rules but rather guides that can be followed if you feel like it.

For instance you might find something like "As a general rule we do not take tips" or "part of the guidelines for finding a potential bust is that the perv initiates contact". How about phone verification on all posted busts? As a matter of fact they actually have busts posted with only a first name, a picture, and a screenname, with the notation "this is a good start".

The diffrence between a general rule and a rule?

A general rule has exceptions, for it to be a general rule it must have been broken or have exceptions. Truely nothing more then guidelines they follow at their own leisure.

"If someone shows up at a house with the verbal expressed intention of having sex with a minor that is clearly intention to commit statutory rape, regardless of your ethical view". - Correct, according to the laws of the land. I agree.

"There is no defense against that except the possibility of a entirely fraudulent report, which is not impossible especially in the case of citizen informants, but I consider it to be highly unlikely in this case considering the sheer amout of evidence supplied." - Um, considering the fraudulent basis under which the PJ websites operate [ domain registration irregularities ]; the shady past exploits and current anonymity and no police background checks of all of its members; the improperly generated, dubious client-side vs. proper impartial server-side chat extract; the tampering of said evidence by arbitrary editorial supplements; the editing out of key elements of text; the lack of date/time stamp information of chat logs; the quick removal of baiter's profile pic and/or change of age as was reported several times by the "busted" people; subsequent follow-up chats with the assumed same wanna be pedo, although in at least one recent case a PJ agent admits to having it fabricated; the countless aliases all of the PJ adherents carry - so we don't know from one day to the next if even their own staff is consistently who they say they are........ geeez. I see no credible evidence at all.

"As a matter of fact they actually have busts posted with only a first name, a picture, and a screenname, with the notation "this is a good start".

Do you have a link for that?

Apologize for the length in advance, I don't want to come off biased, honestly im not, this whole thing disturbs me.

***Warning all links provided below should be considered sexually explicts and disgusting. Not work safe etc.***

***WARNING SEE ABOVE***

Finding a link like this http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/seekinfo/seekcac.htm in the forums of PJ really opens your eyes to the potential of the site and the work. Individuals such as these could be found and identified by PJ's method, and that I fully support. Doing research on PJ has been mentally and emotionally painful, I found myself having difficulty holding a decent conversation at dinner after checking into some areas to back my former accusations. Since I was doing it ownly to gratify my own curiosity I've had my fill of this discussion and the topic entirely is one I wish would go away. I do not support any of the people who might be in the following links, I just want to point out the fact that people who believe someone entirely only knowing there screenname (which pretty much sums up how the public knows all the contributors to PJ and ironically how the targets know there bait) easliy could be making a mistake.

Before I continue and finish my part in any discussion on this topic I state once again I support the work, but not always the people or the amount of harrasment some of targets receive.
Related PJ faq http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
pg=faq#41.

First and for most.

"As a matter of fact they actually have busts posted with only a first name, a picture, and a screenname, with the notation "this is a good start".

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=glowy777_withchrist

Taken from this page is the following quote. "This is an anonymous submission from Portland. Well, not really anonymous, I know who this person is. You just don't need to. This is this individuals first submission. The second one this individual did netted me a phone number, which is how I like them. The submitter didn't know that was a must, and this is dirty enough to add. So I'm making a one time exception to the rule due to this wannabe having "with christ" in his IM name. One of these days I'll set the guidelines for submission pieces."

Notice the mention of a one time exception, then notice the following exceptions.

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=camaromarv17846
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=nice_guy95128
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=lonelyone69692003
(above had a wrong number, how long was the wrong number up)
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=Lookn4nowru
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=caffeine_junkie69
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=pil0_48

None of these, links contain the "This is a good start" quote. Maybe I did not look hard enough or maybe it was on another page and I took it out of contect, either way I'm done, so I'll just apologize for it rather then hurt my eyes anymore. My bad.

You might also want to consider the fact that in the 3 days I have fixiated on this discussion/site the number one most slimey as voted by users was discovered to have what is believed to be a fake picture on his bust, this is discussed in the followup forums. The picture was up for 3 days or longer. http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=notonyourlife2002

You can also go to the listings by phone number add up all the numbers as listed in notation by state and compare that number with the total number of logs featured on the right side.

Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of exceptions.

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=felixxx60

- "I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl, I did it mostly on a lark- I expected he'd know right away what was going on"

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=nwautomedia

Busted in a romance chat room, which is still regional, so not really a exception per say, but I thought it was interesting.

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
archive=girls_lust_4_me_97015 (broken up for page)

- "I was snooping on my friend's boyfriend in a chat" Not really related to the bust, not a big deal, thought it was kind of related to recieving a tip, second thought not really a issue.

I gathered this info by listing the profiles by user vote and starting at the least slimy as per user vote and working up to the most slimy. I made it to about 350, meaning 350 more profiles to go, realized I wasnt even looking for useful information to the discussion and decided to stop tortureing myself.

I do not support any of the profiles listed nor their disturbing activities. If one of these men are caught http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/seekinfo/seekcac.htm is it all worth it? I personally don't want to think about it. I'm done with this issue thank you for letting my voice my opinion and I bid you adieu.

I first saw the info on the perverted justice program on TV and I'd have to say that they have named their program appropriately, for it is truly a perversion of justice. These people are definitely enticing people who are lonely and sexually frustrated to fantasize about an encounter with an underage person. Then they persecute them for the emotions that they bring to fruit. I'd have to say that in all probability they create more deviants than they stop. They should be stopped, as they are truly sick individuals.

Hey lets all face up to the fact that the reason there is so much perversion in the first place is because of the influence of the christian church. If sex wasn't considered dirty, people wouldn't become deviates in the first place.
For example the whole country is pissed because Janet Jackson showed a breast on tv. But it's ok to show murder after murder ad infintum.
That is what is perverted. Perhaps the people who spend there time busting the perverts would instead focus on changing the way society views sexuality in the first place their wouldn't be so many individuals who prey upon the young for sexual gratification. But no that would be wrong to their twisted minds. I am not anti Jesus, just anti christianity as it is a perversion of what he taught. And unfortunately the christians have poisoned the world in the guise of saving it. They are rabid murderers at heart and those who participate in the Perverted Justice program are just haters who hide their violent tendencies behind the facade of helping society. I just wish the Romans would have fed all of the Bastards to the lions in the first place, the world would not be as messed up as it is. For instance we would not have a mass murdering president who was put in power by the Religous Right. Bush is a bigger terrorist than all of the Muslims combined. He has killed more innocent Muslims by far than they have killed innocent Americans. And I don't like the Muslims or the Jews either. They like the Chritians are so sure they are right that they feel justified in killing those who differ from them. All three religions come from the same historical background and they all are poison.
And yes I hide my identity, I don't need any crosses burned on my lawn.

well i got posted on pj and i am only 16. didn't know it was perverted for a 16 y/o to want a 14 y/o. fags

This is one of THE MOST interesting (albeit disturbing) discussions I've ever stumbled upon by accident on the internet. I have to say the desire to "get" the REAL dangerous individuals out there is something on which we all can agree. However there are some really very articulate and compelling arguments made here as to why the PJ "gang" (?) should not be allowed to run unchecked! No easy answers in life are there

This is great. I've been waiting a long time for someone to get up and go off like this. Good for you.

But you might wanna spell it like this: atheist. Just a heads up.

Big ups to all the pervs, semi-pervs, non-pervs, perv watchers, and kids... for making my site #1 !!!!

PJ Buster, Your right I have no business talking like that but I'm extremely frustrated after reading your logs. The bottom line is just about everything you are saying is incorrect, you have no facts about PJ just your opinions. Since you think PJ is so corrupt/fradulent stop talking about it and do something. I suggest you call your local police department and govenment officials first thing in the morning. I mean you KNOW so much about law and everything this should be a piece of cake. I assume you will update us once you bring them down.
BTW- How do you think cops bust these guys? Oh I know they pose as children. You better start making calls right away to let them know it's against the law.

LOOK WHAT PJ BUSTER THINKS:
"I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I would say a mutually arranged meeting between a sexually promiscuous kid and an adult, where the kid chatted at length planning sex acts in detail, the kid encouraged the adult to bring booze, pot & condoms, the kid telephoned the adult, where the kid gave explicit instructions to her home address... in no way convinces me that the people who do show up are serious threats to society at large."

Well, PJ Buster that's a huge limb you have gone out on. You are entitled to your on opinion on what PJ does, but don't present your opinoins like they are facts. Also, your remarks above show your ignorance.

Go "Anne"!!

Go "PJ Buster"!!

Go "NobodyImportant"!!

Go "Meg"!!

Go "BITE ME"!!

Go "curious"!!

Go "Leslie"!!

And even "All4PJ" gets a big shout out...

... for keeping this damn thread alive since JUNE 04, 2003!!!

I heard about PJ for the first time today because they were being discussed on a radio show. Check out http://www.troubleshooter.com Check the affiliate list at that site and see if you might catch a net stream of the upcoming weekend shows Saturday or Sunday I'm sure they will repeat it. It was a hot topic. They pretty much spent the entire 3 hours talking about it, so if you are curious see if you can catch it online (or on the radio if you live in the right place)

Gobble Gobble- What was the screen name you used?? Since your 16 it is not against the law for you to talk to a 14 year old. I want to fully investigate this allegation. I have a hard time believing it, but if your willing to give me the screen name I would be happy to look into it.

PJ Buster, You sure can dish out nasty comments but you can't take em. I told you to stop talking out of your ass because frankly, that's what your doing. I take my apology back. You make some of the most riduculous/unfounded accusations.

This is a yet another quote from PJ Buster
"Remember these are adult (college aged punks or embittered women with man-hating agendas reliving their innocence) fantasizing being underaged teens, carrying on explicitly sexual conversations and all the while mocking and giggling behind the wanna be's back. You don't find that disturbing in any way? You don't see this site as a haven for closet pedophiles living out their own twisted, sick, perverted fantasies - then feigning disgust at the end to wash their hands and to garner support for their cause? You say "It is not normal to fantasize about little girls". How about fantasizing about BEING little girls on a daily basis for hours on end. How sick and evil is that"

You actually have the nerve to call me a pedophile. Well I'll go on the limb here and say YOU ARE THE PEDOPHILE. You are way to angry at an organization you know nothing about. So yes shut your pie hole till you come up with some concrete facts, because so far nothing you have said is intelligent.
For all the rest of you who want to see what's up for yourselves here's a link to a five day investigation done in Kansas last week, they have done quite a few of these "stings" with news groups there available on the PJ site.
I do apologize to all the open minded people willing to give PJ a chance. I don't like to be rude, but when people are flat out lying about an organization that is trying to help others I do get upset.
http://kctv5.com/Global/category.asp?C=9271&nav=1PucKe8p

Anne said - "The bottom line is just about everything you are saying is incorrect, you have no facts about PJ just your opinions".

Why don't you make it easy for me then. All I have to go by is the observation of conduct of PJ. By your last comment pertaining to 16-year-old Gobble's claim of having been busted: "I want to fully investigate this allegation..." - can I assume you're a PJ agent? Why didn't you say so in the first place. What is your REAL screen-name - are you one of the primary PJ contributors? On Feb 6th you said "I'm not a contributer but I post on the site". Ok, just how much do you expect to be able to "fully investigate"? As much as they let you, right? Are you privileged to their internal records? Do you have the power to remove questionable "busts"? Do you have the power to repair lives that have been ruined?

While you're having a board meeting with their executive, would you please post PJ's screening process of their staff, the official code-of-conduct of contributors, the official rules-of-engagement, the official guidelines for submission pieces from renegade followers. I sure would love to have more facts, don't ya know.

Oh, why do I even take you seriously. With an email address like yours "lilqt6137" (pronounced "little cutie"), you're one of those little-girl-wannabe role-players yourself. Shame on you for also working "in this area" [ implication made by you that in some capacity you battle pedophilia as a sanctioned duty of your employ ].... does your employer know how you're spending your nights posing as an underaged child and arranging sex dates? If so, please post the name of the company and an official letter from your employer to confirm he endorses the work of PJ. PJ could use an official endorsement from a child-protection agency. It would be a first.

You're welcome, eric (www.stinkzone.com). Your BLOG lucked out of the 14 or so ones that carry this topic. Congratulations. All the best. If I may be so bold for some shameless self-promotion - the PJ antidote: http://www.geocities.com/pjbuster2003/

PJ Buster or should I call you pedophile go to the main PJ page that willdirect you to the info your looking for. Like I said I'm not a contibutor, but I post often. I do have access to lots of information, so yes it is quite easy for me to investigate gobble. Who are you to ask me for anything PJ BUSTER ( I assume that's your real name). You still have not backed any of your allegations up. It's funny how you keep ranting and raving about your thoughts. Who cares what you think. Did you look at the news link? Have you contacted your local police to report the crimes going on? I bet not, you are a coward. You are a bitter pedophile. Shame on you for being such a complete idiot.. What was you screen name pedophile???

Um. Anne said: "You actually have the nerve to call me a pedophile. Well I'll go on the limb here and say YOU ARE THE PEDOPHILE"

Did I call you a pedophile? I said that we must seriously look at the very real possibility that PJ is a haven for closet pedophiles. That is disturbing. Even a haven for people with sexual deviant fantasies can employ moral, rational people. Perhaps you are one of them. You seem awfully defensive, and you read what you want to read.

Yes, please go out on a limb tossing "YOU ARE THE PEDOPHILE" accusation at me. That's PJ's specialty. You fit right in. You're toying with a slander suit. Why, even PJ tippy-toes around this terminology by saying "wanna be pedophile". This is a prudent legal maneuver. You better re-read your official PJ member's hand-book. When PJ falls, it will be due to you and others who react out of anger and break laws.

I don't know why I need to explain myself over and over, but I have NOT been an ex-"bust", a victim of PJ's defamation machine, I have not knowingly chatted with underaged persons (if they lie about their adult age, then what can I do), I have never fantasized sexually about underaged persons. I DO NOT SUPPORT PEDOPHILIA. Sorry for the shouting. You are using Bush's logic - "if you're not for us, you're a terrorist [ substitute pedophile ]"

I have read most of everyones comments, and I must say that I was at one time a supporter, not a contributor. However I thought one day that I wouldnt be that hard to steal someones information and act as them in a conversation with a PJ baiter. So I wrote to the site owner and he dared to me to do it, because he said it could never be done. Well living with three roomates and all of them have PC's, cell phones, and Yahoo IM accounts it didnt take long for one of them to leave their phone at home and we all leave our Yahoo IM's turned on. So I just logged on to chat did a search for one of the more popular PJ batier screen names, and there I was sitting in a room with the baiter with my roomates IM and his cell phone in my hand. It wasnt that hard and diffently not impossible like the site owner said it would be. Wow I coucld have ruined his life. In fact since then I can not get a respnse from the site owner. So Im sure in all the supporters eyes Im a perv because as it has been said if your not for them then they are against you. Well Im not a perv and infact I am a victim. I was rapped and molested as a child...enough said. PJ has never had one conviction and most law enforcement does not support PJ. IF you want to get involved go to PedoWatch.com or CyberAngels.org they are real sites that have a real mission and are legit. By the way neither of those two site support PJ. PJ is militant and have no real mission. So you embarras someone, then what? Get into a real cause that actually helps people. It is ok to get off the PC to get involved there is a whole world of help out there that dosent involve the PC. These guys are not professionals and are takeing the chance of ruining someones life that is innocent.

"Ok, just how much do you expect to be able to "fully investigate"? As much as they let you, right?"

I would think that if Anne wanted to talk to someone that claims they were "busted" at 16 years old, she could do so without needing approval from PJ.

PJ Buster, IMO, many of your so called "facts" on your website would carry more weight if you had something to back them up with.

"So I just logged on to chat did a search for one of the more popular PJ batier screen names, and there I was sitting in a room with the baiter with my roomates IM and his cell phone in my hand."

How would you do a search for one of the more popular PJ screen names? I haven't gone through every name that they have used, but the ones that I have looked at are not valid yahoo names anymore.

Are you serious. They use the same name many times and you can see that fromt he fomer busts. Thats all Im saying Im not looking to fight but thats what happend. dont be pissed at me cause I was able to do it.

Anne said: "PJ Buster or should I call you pedophile go to the main PJ page that willdirect you to the info your looking for." What information am I looking for again?

No, "PB Buster" is not my real name. Since you've already labeled me as a pedophile, as I knew you would, I wouldn't want you and your cohorts to start stalking me. Yep, sometimes people who are cautious and wish to remain anonymous are perfectly innocent - we just don't like to have our lives ruined with false accusations. You've already started that process by labeling me. Who cares about your real name anyhow. You're PJ's slave... tell us Xavier's [ PJ cult leader ] real name and we might get someplace. Let him stand face-to-face with me in a court of law and accuse me of being a pedophile. Actually, to give them credit, I wouldn't be surprised if you get a yelling-at by a PJ'er - for throwing unfounded accusations around in PJ's name. They have shown a little more integrity than you have. I can't believe I'm saying that.

Oh, and regarding the bogus investigative news of KCTV 5... You have some serious blinders on. For every sensationalistic media scoop that PJ takes out-of-context and uses to boosts their own egos with, there is a real story behind-the-scenes. "US District Attorney's office in Kansas City responds to airing of KCTV 5 predator story" and "Kansas City CBS Affiliate KCTV 5, comes under fire for it's airing of controversial story supporting Perverted Justice. com". Read the full story on http://www.geocities.com/stop_vigilante_justice/ .

Blah, Blah, Blah. I'm still waiting for your facts...
Did ya call the authorities. Why don't you prove yourself smarty pants and back up what your saying.
Any yes pedo buster I do think your a pedophile. I will quote you once again.
" I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I would say a mutually arranged meeting between a sexually promiscuous kid and an adult, where the kid chatted at length planning sex acts in detail, the kid encouraged the adult to bring booze, pot & condoms, the kid telephoned the adult, where the kid gave explicit instructions to her home address... in no way convinces me that the people who do show up are serious threats to society at large.

You are a twisted person. So because the kid talks about sex it's o.k. Unfortunately parents cannot babysit their kids 24/7. There are lots of vulnerable kids out there. Do I think it's right that a child would talk like that to a adult, no: would I want my kid to talk like that, definately not. The fact is regardless of what we want this is what's going on out there. I would be more than happy to help any organization I KNOW AND CAN PROVE is doing good.

Your right you don't need to explain your self over and over. No one has asked you too I have simply asked you to give me one concrete fact you have and I've still seen none.

Yes I labeled you a pedophile and you labeled everyone at PJ:
"Remember these are adult (college aged punks or embittered women with man-hating agendas reliving their innocence) fantasizing being underaged teens, carrying on explicitly sexual conversations and all the while mocking and giggling behind the wanna be's back. You don't find that disturbing in any way? You don't see this site as a haven for closet pedophiles living out their own twisted, sick, perverted fantasies - then feigning disgust at the end to wash their hands and to garner support for their cause? You say "It is not normal to fantasize about little girls". How about fantasizing about BEING little girls on a daily basis for hours on end. How sick and evil is that?"

Why don't you Pj on your list of people to call. I'm sure I'll be in big trouble. I believe I already said I'm not a contributor, therefore I'm not representing/speaking on their behalf. I can call you a pedophile all I want, after all you have tossed out many slanderous remarks yourself. I'm done with you, you have no facts only opinions..

Oh, Anne. You are getting tedious. When I said "I'm going to go out on a limb here,... in no way convinces me that the people who do show up are serious threats to society at large" - I was making the point that setting up a meeting like that is not the behavior of the classic definition of a sexual predator who preys on innocent victims, kidnaps, murders, etc. I did NOT claim that a conversation such as that excuses or condones an adult's behavior. I was responding to your assertion that people who chat, or even show up, are a "serious threats to society". But now according to you I'm twisted. Heck, I read those sites (real ones) that explain seriously about what pedophilia is so that I could be better equipped to read the chat logs and determine if the wannabe fit that description. Your loose accusations leveled at me demonstrate you have not done due diligence in researching this topic at all.

Now you say you "would be more than happy to help any organization I KNOW AND CAN PROVE is doing good". Are you now saying you DO NOT in fact work "in the field" for a child-protection agency of some sort at this time? You wish to work for such an agency... OK. You say you wish to help any organization you know. Didn't you say you are a relative new-comer to PJ? Can you furnish proof that PJ is doing good? Or is it merely your own sense of self-worth to go through the motions that is the issue. Do some real good and support legitimate organizations why don't you. And if you're already doing that as you implied before, then please inform your boss of what you are doing in your spare time at PJ. Are you using company time to use your PC to so busts or comment on their forums? May I have the phone number of your employer so that I can tell them how you misuse company computers? People have been fired for that, you know. If your boss is OK with it however, then I will expect your company's logo to be displayed on PJ's website as a proud supporter of their cause.

Josh
"Are you serious. They use the same name many times and you can see that fromt he fomer busts. Thats all Im saying Im not looking to fight but thats what happend. dont be pissed at me cause I was able to do it."

I've seen where they have used the same name 2 or 3 times, but not many. Do you have examples?

PJ Buster
""US District Attorney's office in Kansas City responds to airing of KCTV 5 predator story" and "Kansas City CBS Affiliate KCTV 5, comes under fire for it's airing of controversial story supporting Perverted Justice. com". Read the full story on http://www.geocities.com/stop_vigilante_justice/"

That's not what I would call a legitimate resource. IF it is that big of a deal, are there any legit news sources that have the story?

How sad that it has come to this. Regardless of whether or not this site is corrupt, the focus has gone from wanting to help children to immature name calling and one-uping each other over an issue that clearly has two valid arguments.

I can honestly say I see both sides. Sure, if innocent lives have been ruined, or have the potential to be, then something should be done. Yes, the PJer's need to be accountable for their actions, as does everybody.

But I must say I was surprised when I read that someone thinks 13 and 14 year old girls "with good parenting" don't brag about their sexual experiences online. Well they do. I am 24 now, and when I was 13, at least half of my friends were sexually active and the pressure was on. I waited, but many others did not (even the ones with the "perfect parents"!!). "Slutty behavior" someone said? Ok, we're name calling again, and maybe it is considered immoral, but they are children. Children do not have the same mental capacity that adults (hopefully) do. They act more out of impulse, and sometimes even peer pressure. They make mistakes, and need redirection. Rather than calling them names and excusing the pedophiles that feed on a teenager's exploratory and rebelious nature, we need to help them.

...And regardless of how so called "slutty" girls are parented, they should NOT be victims of pedophiles no matter WHO their parents are and the quality of parenting they receive.

Like I said before, I am still divided as to whether or not I agree with the site in general. I like the fact that it may deter would-be pedophiles from using the internet to prey on children... perhaps this concept could be reconstructed into something that is legally and morally accountable yet saving our children at the same time.

But whatever the outcome, the kids need you to stop bickering and start being there for them.

SMX said: "IF it is that big of a deal, are there any legit news sources that have the story?"

It's in the works. Media drags their feet when faced with a possible retraction story. The content of those telephone interviews with US Districts Attorney's Kansas City Missouri office Consumer Relations division, and the one with Meredith Broadcasting (owner of KCTV 5) Corporate Relations office, as described on that site are real and took place. That much I do know. I am down-and-dirty addressing the PJ issue, more than just babbling opinion here or on a website. Real people are being contacted - from legal authorities, attorneys, right down to PJ "bust" victims who's former employers need to get a booster shot-reminder of company policy and legal recourse. For whatever that's worth coming from me.

You must also realize, that doing a proper treatment of the PJ menace in the media would require more than mere video and sound bites... possibly much more than what most people would consider attention grabbing or good entertainment value. To fully explain the intended good PJ is ostensibly doing, vs. the real harm and potential for misuse by vindictive individuals who see PJ as a convenient tool to "out" a perfectly innocent individual, would require some real discussion by a panel from all sides of the issue. Not by yet more hooded vigilantes from PJ - telephone interviews or masked video clips of anonymous people who represent themselves as spokespeople for PJ.

Until that organization comes clean and is not afraid to show they are operating from a position of legitimacy, the media's one-sided coverage of PJ's exploits is nothing but a ratings-getting exercise. Do you hear yourself? To say "if it was on TV it must be true". That's as silly as saying because PJ has a website (an in fact no bricks-and-mortar headquarters outside of this cyber-reality), they must be doing good things. That just because they have several thousand anonymous registered users salivating at the prospect of furthering their stalking hobby, (none of which are adult-checked for being 18+ by-the-way), is somehow evidence of legitimacy.

PJ Buster
"Until that organization comes clean and is not afraid to show they are operating from a position of legitimacy, the media's one-sided coverage of PJ's exploits is nothing but a ratings-getting exercise. Do you hear yourself? To say "if it was on TV it must be true". That's as silly as saying because PJ has a website (an in fact no bricks-and-mortar headquarters outside of this cyber-reality), they must be doing good things. That just because they have several thousand anonymous registered users salivating at the prospect of furthering their stalking hobby, (none of which are adult-checked for being 18+ by-the-way), is somehow evidence of legitimacy."

Let's keep it in context. I didn't say, "if it's on tv it must be true". If I follow the rationale that you present, it would also be true that a Geocities page that claims to be doing investigative work into PJ is also questionable.

PJ Buster
"That much I do know. I am down-and-dirty addressing the PJ issue, more than just babbling opinion here or on a website."

As I asked earlier, what evidence can you provide to back the "facts" section of your site.

PJ Buster-
First you said "Witch-hunters / baiters / entrappers / stalkers / vigilantes - these are terms to describe the collective behavior of PJ and its followers"

Next it's "You're toying with a slander suit. Why, even PJ tippy-toes around this terminology by saying "wanna be pedophile". This is a prudent legal maneuver. You better re-read your official PJ member's hand-book. When PJ falls, it will be due to you and others who react out of anger and break laws."
IM SUING YOU FOR SLANDER TOO!

You truly are laughable. You are now debating the credentials/legitimacy of the news organization. I suppose they are also a bunch of witchhunters Your a moron. You must not have realized this was shown on the news every night for four nights. The people featured on their actually solicited the CHIEF EXECUTIVE REPORTER for KCTV5 who was posing as a minor. It's the news not survivor you idiot. Do you think the media would open themselves to a lawsuit by reporting fraudulent information?? Does anyone hear actually agree with this fool??

Where's the government website that has the posting about the investigation you refer to. You don't believe the news is credible, but I'm suppose to accept the info on geo cities..

PJ Buster once again you bring nothing concrete to the table.

Anne, for someone who claims to not be directly involved with PJ, you certainly take "witch-hunters / baiters / entrappers / stalkers" personally. Which is the more slanderous - my labeling PJ's collective methods OR you calling me a pedophile when you have not so much as a even dubious chat-log to go on. I disagree with PJ's methods. The way I see it they do exactly those things as I've used terms for. If you are a PJ supporter, then so be it. Join in their hunts by all means. But before you level repulsive insults at my character, please remember we are discussing PJ as a concept. Besides, I believe I said "arm-chair witch-hunters". So geez, grab a popcorn and watch their lynching unfold in their followup forum. If you do nothing but watch, then the term witch-hunter (proper) does not apply to you. But I do stand by the arm-chair part as long as you continue to support them.

Heck, if I called you a witch... it would be less slanderous than "pedophile". Now I'm also "laughable", a "moron", an "idiot", and a "fool". Keep 'em coming. The day I post a personal insult against your character is the day I sink to your level. Keep your fingers crossed and hold your breath please.

You said "You are now debating the credentials/legitimacy of the news organization". Yes, that is so. Chief executive reporter? He's a trained deputized arm of the law now who is qualified to assess psychological makeup of wanna be pedos? Does this not smack of news reporters creating the news rather than reporting it? What does this have to with the news reports lending credence to PJ's activities? Aren't we discussing PJ? Or is KCTV-5 the new PJ on the block?

Beth- I do apologize for name calling. You are right the focus has changed quite a bit. But I would like to point out that PJ Buster's points are not valid. I have asked and so have others numerous times for some kind of evidence to back up ANY of the claims PJ Buster has made, as we can all see not once has any proof been provided. Any of the facts I have stated I'm willing to back up, and more than willing to provide proof of. Furthermore, If I made a false allegation I would own up to it rather than try and weasel my way around it. I'm not a witch hunter or a vigilante, I simply have a realistic understanding of what's going on in the world. I post on PJ regulary, and I speak to many of the busts. I have my opinions on what they are doing,yet I do treat them decently as long as they do the same (I can POVE that too). Pj Buster is here to bad mouth PJ, he refuses to accept any of the evidence I can/have provided. This is why I THINK PJ Buster is a prior bust. I cannot understand anyone being as closed minded on this topic as PJ Buster has been. Pj Buster has even trashed the media for covering a story saying that is bogus also, which they are an extremely credible news organization . Yet, I have done my own checking with the Missouri U.S. District attorney and their is no such ivestigation. If you don't believe that call yourself. I'm mean really don't you find it funny that rather than providing the link to the Missouri U.S district attorney page which features the story we are directed to geocities, (BTW that's PJ Busters little site, remember self promotion). If you don't want to call copy the quoted material PJ Buster provided and google it. That quote does not exist (other than in his website). Beth it's up to you whether you support PJ or not. I don't have any problem with people that don't support their site, and honestly I have had some people give pretty valid reasons as why they don't believe in it. I can respect that. WHat I have no respect for is someone who goes on message board posts false allegations, and once again REFUSE TO PROVIDE PROOF OF ANYTHING. I'd love to see the evidence of all the wrongfully accused busts. Like I said I THINK PJ Buster is a prior bust and I'm also looking into that. I'll let you know either way.
District attorney office link:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/aboutus/usattorney.html
This should give anyone enough evidence to disregard anything PJ says.

I forgot to add one more thing. It is against the law to falsify government documents. I'll be contacting the District attorney office in Missouri shortly to see what they have to say.

Oh and hear we have it. PJ Buster must know that it's a federal offense to have a fraudulent article like that. It's miraculously disapeared. This is why I get so angry. I'm sorry if I offend anyone but he is an idiot.

If it has geocities in its address its not a credible source. If you would both keep yourselves in check this discussion would be alot smoother, not to mention my post wouldnt be railroaded.

If you want to discuss the KCTV 5 report I suggest you both get informed cause niether of you have the full picture.

The busts were forwarded to a house where the KCTV5 reporter was, the reporter did not conduct the online part of the investigation personally, Jay Alternative was the PJ contributor featured in the report. People who did not show to the house were not featured in the news report, no mention was even made that some people did not show at the house. The people who did not show to the house KCTV5 would not report, put on the air, nor even make refrence that they even exsist. Those people still however are on the
PJ site and are getting more harrasment then some who actually did show up.

If you want to argue about this at least get informed, look at this profile,

****WARNING SEXUALLY EXPLICT AND DISGUSTING****
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=notonyourlife2002

then look at the follow up thread. Maybe then you can discuss you view on them asking people to stop mailing flyers with the picture on it because they thought they had the wrong guy, hope none of those flyers got out. Or maybe you can contemplate on how you feel about them just posting all 3 pictures of people they feel it could be with the notation "Could one of these people be a wannabe peodophile?". Regardless stop railroading the discussion with your bickering.

I've asked once, twice and now three times. I guess I'm either invisible or there is not a "good" answer. Just in case you missed it, I'll post again.

PJ Buster
"That much I do know. I am down-and-dirty addressing the PJ issue, more than just babbling opinion here or on a website."

SMX
As I asked earlier, what evidence can you provide to back the "facts" section of your site.

Nobody important- They have the clips online of the busts showing up, they faces are blurred out but they are there and talking on camera, I positive that 16 people showed up. I apologize if you were railroaded, I should not have let PJ Busters opinions get me so angry.

As for notonyourlife2002- I will respond to you in a little bit. I do have and idea on what happened, but I'd rather answer your question correctly, rather than tell you what I think. Like some people here are doing. But for now If I remember correctly those pictures were in his profile but like I said I'll check into it and get back to you.

I would like to make one thing clear. I do believe in PJ's cause. When these guys are busted all of the info they do provide is put up, and is made available to the public. I'm sure some people do become enraged and act before they know all the facts. I know that the people at PJ watch the forums and verify info. As soon as they know there's a problem they fix it (normally by pulling all info). In my opinion PJ does what they can to make sure info is correct, but unfortunately mistakes do happen. Once again I'm telling you what I think, I'm not speaking on behalf of PJ. I will see if I can find some statistics on that kind of stuff. I don't want to see anyone wrongfully accused. I personally never do anything until I know all the facts are straight.

Im not sure who put in something about neighbors address and phone numbers being posted, but that is normally done to notify the community. I usually will link them so they are not displayed, for a couple of the busts I've worked on I have contacted neighbors. I would normally do this if I have a picture of the bust but cannot verify if they are at a particular address. I would explain why I was calling, and ask them to look at the picture and tell me whether it is/not the neighbor. I have not encountered anyone who was angry about this, I think most people are grateful.
I will find the direct link to the clips and post it in a few.

Nobody Important- I will provide a link to kctv5. If it does not take you directly to the investigation page just go to the home page and hit investigation button and it should come right up. click the investigation link and the media player should come up. I apologize for saying the reporter did the actual chatting. The chats did not begin until reporters were present, the chats were actually conducted by Jay. I was also wrong in saying 16 showed I believe it was more like 30. The reason people that did not show are posted is because it is against the law to even chat online with a minor like that, and they should be posted. Do you suggest it's better to let these guy's run the streets till they have the nerve to go to the minors house? I will attach another post from that site just so were clear once and for all about this being done illegally. This is also taken from Kctv

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- A local television station can broadcast an investigative report on internet sex predators in its entirety after a federal judge vacated Thursday an earlier order barring parts of the story from the air.

A man identified in the story by CBS-affiliate KCTV5 filed a defamation lawsuit Wednesday, and later in the day, U.S. District Judge Scott O. Wright ordered the station not to broadcast his name and face.

In vacating that decision Thursday, Wright wrote, "A temporary restraining order in this context is a violation of the First Amendment's prohibition against prior restraints."

The report, part of a five-part series, will air on KCTV5 Thursday night at 10 p.m. CST. Station Manager Kirk Black said he was not surprised by Wright's decision to vacate his initial order.
They also have a discussion board there where you can ask any questions about the legitamcy of the news station.
bust link
http://www.kctv.com/Global/category.asp?C=9271&nav=1Puc
Investigation link
http://www.kctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1632339&nav=1PucKe8p

PJ Buster- HAHAHAHA.. You changed the story. Where's the one from yesterday?? I so want to forward that to my friend........

What is KCTV5 suggesting, attempting to do, or attempting to prevent by decideing not to include those individuals or recognition of their exsistance in the report?

Does KCTV5 suggest it's better to let these guy's run the streets till they have the nerve to go to the minors house?

I hope you don't buy that.

The margin for error is much lower and the intention is much clearer, that is why a accountable and professional organization avoided publicly reporting those marks entirely.

What are you talking about. They gave names???? If your talking about pictures the reason faces are not visible is because they did not give the news permission to show they're faces,. When you send a picture through the internet it becomes public information. If this is not what your referring to please explain. By the way that same credible news organization was also promoting PJ, and silently screaming go to perverted-justice.com to see these scumbags. You should realize pedophilia has been frowned upon for decades the victims if they spoke up were basically called liars and outcasts. It is only within the last 20 years or so that pedophilia was recognized as a disease. And more recently it is popping up all the time (due to priests). Pedophilia is a disease that cannot be cured, it must be recognized and treated throught the pedophiles lifetime. Don't you watch the news? Don't you see that kids are been kidnapped daily through the net. If you don't agree with Pj then thats fine. Bring something to the table that's debateable. I will stil figure out what happened with the busts you asked about. But even statistically those few busts mean little, compared to the amount of accurate busts. Every day people are wrongfully accused, don't get me wrong I don't think that's right, but it happens. If Pj was doing anything wrong or illegal you and I both know they would not still be up. Whether or not you agree with that means little. Plenty of things go on in this world I don't agreewith.

You have not watched the KCTV5 report. I have no objections to the report by KCTV5 whatsoever.

I do however object to the line of thinking that a wrongfully accused person does not mean much statistically when reasonable steps can be taken to greatly reduce mishaps when followed rigorously. I object to the idea that a adult can not have a conversation with a minor without becoming sexually aroused, even if in some (rare) cases the conversation is sexually oriented in topic. I object to the general labeling of every single person profiled on PJ as a pedophile by amatuers with out extensive professional psychological training. I object to the rules of engagement or rather the lack there of that PJ operates under which would allow their contributors to use the site as a weapon in personal vendettas.

Nobodyimportant- lets get a couple things straightened out. I don't want anyone wrongfully accused. I would not want that to happen to anyone I know or myself, but the facts are it happens daily.

I have talked to many people that deny it. I say call the cops it's illegal for someone to take your info like that. Pj does not call the cops, but often citizens do and the cops will fully investigate that. If someone's personal items are taken that's completely verifiable by computer forensics which is quite easy to do.

As for your comment on the adult becoming aroused. A adult has no business talking to a minor sexually. Why would anyone have a sexual conversation with a minor. If your a teacher/counselor talking to a minor it's your responsibility to end that conversation once it turns sexual. I can't even believe you would make such a dumb comment.
Every single person featured on PJ is not labeled as a pedophile. They are labeled wanna be, once they bring up sex. Also, all contact IS initiated by the bust + they are normally told to look at the profile, and they are normally asked so you don't mind I'm whatever age.
Maybe licensed professionals should be dealing with this, but this is a epidemic that must be dealt with immediately.
Pedophiles are not trolling for adults.
I have no personal vendatta other than making this issue known, and dealt with.
The cases are not rare, every day kids are kidnapped, raped, molested. If you think it's rare provide some facts.
Statstics are everything. Would we have cops/lawyers/everything else in our lives without statistics? NO everything in our lives are based on statitcs.
I'm absolutelty sick by your referral to an adult, and making it o.k. in your own mind for any adult to talk like that. They have no right that's why it's a federal offense. Maybe you need to look up statistics before voicing your opinoin.
BTW- I'm licensed, I fully admit lot's of people there are not. But that means little when it comes to law. I have statistics. I've offered them many times an no-one here seems to be interested. You want to banter on about what you think. Tell me some truth, something you can prove. I've heard many opinoins here, but I want some evidence,I've provided that for what I've said. If you need more let me know..
Like I stated earlier: How do you think cops catch these people??? They act like children(another fact)

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=felixxx60

- "I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl, I did it mostly on a lark- I expected he'd know right away what was going on"

Special exception to initiating contact.

My comment regarding conversations between adults and minors was in regard to a publicly broadcast radio show known as "Love Line" I heard when I was driving home from renting movies last night. I was not refering to any specific log or even anything on PJ.

I have provided you proof of a exception to the mark initiating contact above. Since I have provided proof of bait initiating contact (not to mention the 7 or 8 phone verification exceptions I mentioned), I ask what proof is there that partial sets of logs are not being posted? (Would you think I am insane if I said I believed I could find at least 1 profile on PJ where partial logs are posted with notation saying it was caused due to a computer malfunction?) This question lead me to the following possible scenario.

"This may come as a surprise but there are actually men ages 18-70 who can have a non sexual conversation and frankly I don't think males from the age of 18 and up should have to live in fear of every l33thax0r gamer they cross summoning up a entourage of Mcarthiysts to do whatever they can to setup a person to be publicly ridiculed."
(Taken directly from a earlier post by me.)

You feel that teens and children should be able to use yahoo chat without parents living in fear of sexual predators, and I agree with you totally. My reference to a personal vendetta was in no way a reference to your motives for contributing to or supporting PJ.

Anne: "I THINK PJ Buster is a prior bust and I'm also looking into that. I'll let you know either way."

You do that. Let me know. You just can't get it through your head that I may be just against PJ without being a "bust", can you? I have never trolled a chat room for underaged sexual encounters. In an earlier message of Feb 11 you said "You actually have the nerve to call me a pedophile" followed by "shut your pie hole", etc, etc. Why is it you get upset when you believed I was labeling you with that vial term (even though I was commenting on PJ's methods and possible motivations; the place is a haven for operatives having major skeletons in closets), yet you label me, directly, as a personal attack with the same term? Please furnish proof that I am a pedophile / previous "bust".

You apologized once for you language/tone, then you took it back, then you retracted and enforced your vitriol. Then you apologized again to Beth for the name calling. Keep it up. The readers will decide.

Anne, Feb 12 "Oh and hear we have it. PJ Buster must know that it's a federal offense to have a fraudulent article like that. It's miraculously disapeared [sic]. This is why I get so angry. I'm sorry if I offend anyone but he is an idiot."
-- Huh? what was that fraudulent article that disappeared?

For more discussion about KCTV-5's tabloid TV journalism, go here: http://users.boardnation.com/~kctv/index.php?
board=19%3baction=display%3bthreadid=338

I shouldn't even be acknowledging SMX's screaming about backing facts, having a phony email (none.none.com). The PJ Buster site states the following Facts about PJ:
1) PJ is not an accredited organization. It is not a registered entity; not for profit nor charitable organization.
2) The PJ website, its motivations or methods, is not endorsed nor supported by any child protection/advocacy organization.
3) The PJ website, its motivations or methods, is not endorsed nor supported by any legal department, branch, state or federal law enforcement agency.
4) PJ is not endorsed or supported by any institute of higher learning, including any member accredited teachers or professors.
5) PJ agents do not have training/certification of any kind.
6) Pictures of “themselves”, of underaged people, transmitted by the entrappers, or linked to (link edited out) are not given in the chat. You have to wonder whose they are borrowing. And why they are transmitting suggestive child pornography – another violation of Yahoo TOS (terms of service).
7) Your phone number and address are posted for public view.
8) PJ’s mission statement/FAQ clearly states: “We don’t end pedophilia as we know it. That’s not our goal. The goal of this website and our endeavors is to create a “chilling effect” in regional chat rooms … we want to poison the well of these rooms and places by covering enough of them that even if you’re looking for under aged females, an extra bit of paranoia will cross your mind”
9) Among the suggestions to make you see the light, PJ encourages their followers to make crank calls to you at all hours, to send you pornographic material via email, dump bleach on your lawn, put dog excrement in your mailbox, crazy glue your front door shut, mail frozen fish to your address. To hand out excerpts of chat room conversations to your neighbors.
[ This is all in a member’s bio on their website ]

Which one is in dispute here, SMX? If you have FACTS to prove the above wrong, I'm sure the PJ Buster website will be happy to correct any mistakes.

PJ Buster-who's profile is that on the PJ site? The original letter you had on the geocities is not the same as the one you had on there Feb.11th.

My name is James Baetke. Yep, that's my real name. No harm there. I am a reporter for the Rocky Mountain Collegian in Fort Collins, CO (just north of Denver). I am witing a fair and balanced piece on perverted-justice.com and found this web posting. Many of you seem to have some distinct views and comments about the site. Would anyone like to speak on the record about the site? If so, please contact me at jbaetke@msn.com and we can arrange something.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from someone very soon.

Sincerely,

James Baetke

PJ Buster, I simply asked you to provide proof for the claimed "facts" and all you do is regurgitate the list. It looks as if you do not have concrete evidence to back your claims.

Also, I'm far from screaming, just calling you out to see if you will rise to the challenge. You seem to be hung up on people giving valid email addys, I fail to see the importance of this. It just appears to be a way to dodge answering questions.

James, hi. Yes, sounds good. After we confirm your employment there and that you're not a PJ spy milking us for our sources, tips in how PJ might shore-up legal flaws, etc., which has happened in the past. I hope you can understand that. This is a dangerous game, and ANYONE is at risk of being labeled pedophile and stalked by them. Case-in-point, they can and do implement that power for intimidation against their detractors. Witness Anne's personal attacks against me.

SMX - I repeat:
Which one is in dispute here, SMX? If you have FACTS to prove the above wrong, I'm sure the PJ Buster website will be happy to correct any mistakes.

Anne said: "PJ Buster-who's profile is that on the PJ site? The original letter you had on the geocities is not the same as the one you had on there Feb.11th". I honestly don't know what you mean. There was a letter on the geocities site? A government document that was not legally posted you said earlier? Which geocities site are you referring to? Which specific HTML page there? I know of nothing that has been deleted.

I am a police officer and am thrilled to see a site like this working to beat predators at their own game. I can't imagine how PJ Buster could possibly have such strong feelings against the efforts of others to catch people attempting to molest children. I have my opinion about this, but will not voice it here. I will say that I was appalled to read his statement, "I'm going to go out on a limb here,..." was absolutely dusgusting to me. PJ, don't bother remarking on my comments, as I have no desire to discuss the issue with you.
Anne, I am impressed with the time and effort you put into this, but may I give some constructive criticism? The site's credibility and professionalism is directly affected by the manner in which people supporting the site discuss issues. Don't let "certain people" lure you into an idiotic exchange of insults and profanity.
I have said what I wanted to say, and while I probably won't engage in lengthy discussions on this page, I will be watching the site. Rest assurred, if one of the perverts exposed on this site is in my jurisdiction, embarassment online will be the least of his worries. I wish more agencies would put this website to use and follow up with criminal charges.

Wow,
Imagine that...A cop who sactions vigilante actions. A cop who believes himself to be above the law. Right here, in America.

I...I, just can't believe it.

Upon reading my earlier post I feel I was clearly refering to following up via legal channels, not "vigilante actions". I in no way support solving this issue with violence, threats or harassment. I apologize if I worded that in a manner to make people believe I support such actions.

PJ is an agency? Where is it duly registered and classified as such? Are you willing to take their information as gospel even though none of their contributors have undergone criminal background checks? You wish MORE agencies would put them to use? More than the zero that support them now? Why not be the first - put your police division/jurisdiction's name on their website as official supporters. Put your money where your mouth is. Go ahead and deputize these loose cannons who have no training and no credibility. Remember you are accountable, as employees of the taxpayer, as protectors of the innocent, to push back in kind, when they go astray. Are you willing to do that, officer?

PJ Buster
"SMX - I repeat:
Which one is in dispute here, SMX? If you have FACTS to prove the above wrong, I'm sure the PJ Buster website will be happy to correct any mistakes."

Lame and hardly effective. I ask you to prove your "facts" and your only response is for me to disprove them. I didn't expect you to come forth with anything of substance, guess I was right. If this is how you handle questions/concerns, good luck at taking on PJ.

It's not my job to take on PJ. Just to make people aware there is more than one side to the issue. Here's a refreshing break from tabloid reporting for a change:

"TV report, vigilante Web group no help, cops say"
http://www.freep.com/money/tech/npred12_20040212.htm

Yet another refreshing break...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/7951334.htm

You have to register to view the article, but it does mention: "...A Detroit station, WDIV-TV, also went undercover with perverted-justice.com. Its series started the same night as KCTV's — not coincidentally, on the first night of “sweeps.” All three stations attracted huge audiences and generated plenty of interest, including the arrest of one man caught on tape by the Detroit station..."

WTF, an arrest, wow, I thought law enforcement didn't want anything to do with PJ. ;)

The cop- I appreciate your critisism, and fully agree with you. It's extremely important to me that people recognize what's happening around us. I realize some people are hard headed and regardless of how bad I want for them to understand they simply won't. I'm a professional, and I try and maintain that professionalism in everything I do. Obviously this is an instance that I have not. I won't apologize for the comments I've made to PJ Buster because it's how I feel. I should have voiced my feelings in a better manner. I really do apologize to people who read my posts if I offend them, that truly is not my intention.

Now let's get to the good stuff- I see Pj Buster still can't back any of his "facts" up. Anyway that really does not matter a few of us have pleaded with him/her to back anything up and still nothing. i think that says it all.
As for adults chatting with kids- No adult should be talking online with a minor (unless your a homework helper, or something like that) . I'm 27 years old I have absolutely nothing to talk to a minor about, what could we possibly have in common? If a minor ever approached me and started getting personal I would end the chat immediately. A normal adult does not let chatting with a minor come to a point of arousal.

Address's posted on the website- All are collected legally through public information. Granted some people may not like having there's posted, but then they should not have their info available to the general public. I have not contacted one person who's number has been posted, that was upset about that. They are normally more concerned about the pervert rather than worring about their info being posted. Besides no-one is trying to bother them only warn them.

Everything done on PJ once again is completely LEGAL. Whether anyone here likes it or not I think that they're in for the long haul. Many people/companies/newsorganizations are endorsing PJ (hence news reports, newspaper articles). Police departments don 't have the time or the manpower to fully deal with this epidemic. Yep Buster we have ourselves an epidemic.

Oh before I forget. All of the conversations are initiated by the ADULT never the CHILD. The reason the logs sometimes look like the minor made first contact is because yahoo generally cut's off the top line of your archives when pasting them. If you think one has been done illegally please contact your local police department. Everything is completely verifiable through computer forensics. I totally encourage anyone who thinks they are reading something illegal to contact the police. I've said it many times I don't want the innocent hurt.

PJ Buster did you verify all the info on the news man???

Hey guys

PJ Buster: I have written emails to you and posted media requests on this forum to gain some opposing sources. There are many out there willing to talk about the pros of perverted-justice.com, but none to refute it. Why is this??

I am NO spy and work for a repretable newspaper in Fort Collins, CO. You may certainly call my editor to confirm employment. If that's what it will take to talk with you, so be it. The desk number is 970-491-1392, and my name is James Baetke. Anyone else willing to speak out on their opinion is encouraged to do so...call me at that number or email me at jbaetke@msn.com.

Will any one step forward or is this forum all smoke and mirrors? I really can't figure it out.

Sincerely,

James Baetke

Mr. Baetke, please be patient. I have seen no emails except the public challenge posted on this BLOG. If you hoped for a more expedited response, then perhaps a direct email, with a return address of your media relation's centre, rather than an MSN address (for example something containing colostate.edu) would have been more professional. Your request to speak with PJ refuters was forwarded to my colleagues a few days ago February 15th. Initial contact shall most likely be through official channels of the Fort Collins Colorado State University professional staff, such as General Manager, Production Manager, Broadcast Adviser, etc. The telephone number you have given appears to be for Collegian newsroom staff, so we can start there.

With all due respect, your "Rocky Mountain Collegian in Fort Collins" appears to be a student newspaper. Your in-your-face chicken calling here casts some doubt on it being quote repretable [sic] newspaper. However, to your credit, we have read some of your articles there, for example "Community report shows need to prioritize public safety" - By James Baetke, January 29, 2004, to get an idea where you stand with any bias. So far it appears you articulate well and provide reporting matter-of-factly, which is a plus.

Anne said: "Granted some people may not like having there's posted, but then they should not have their info available to the general public." - That's one of the dumbest things you posted. One can not help having ones address in public records, such as telephone books, real-estate records, car license plate/driver's license databases, etc. It's not a choice. You must also have seen the many times PJ has posted a slew of potential home addresses, employee addresses, schools, etc. - when they're fishing for positive identification. Rest assured there are 100's of PJ clones who have a lot of time on their hands, that call up each and every one of them to ask for names and details about relatives. Such calls of course carry with them the accusation that a pedophile lives among them. This is the collateral damage portion of PJ's operations. Not to mention the times when a wanna be's kids were told over the phone how their daddy likes to diddle little girls just like them... Sure, YOU may have not gone out and done these things personally, and perhaps the more moderate PJ staff have not done so either. But the structure of the PJ website promotes this atmosphere. Surely you can understand that among the 1000's of registered users who follow the PJ forum, there may be some unstable, vengeful individuals. The followup-forum is integral to PJ's chat-log "bust"... so don't start distancing yourself from actions taken by the officially registered users - who have not so much needed to pass any age verification. Those PJ clones along with PJ supporters and contributors, however they are ranked, form a monolithic defamation machine. The damage doled out rests on PJ's administrative staff, as much as any credit for good that may come from PJ's actions.

When you say: "Many people/companies/newsorganizations are endorsing PJ (hence news reports, newspaper articles)" - you claim this is proof that PJ has support. When I post a link to a news item that disputes PJ's motives and tactics ("TV report, vigilante Web group no help, cops say" http://www.freep.com/money/tech/npred12_20040212.htm ), you say: "PJ Buster did you verify all the info on the news man???". Do you hear your own hypocrisy?

"Everything is completely verifiable through computer forensics.". It could be when access is granted to legal authority. PJ does not have such access. They do not have server-side data traffic monitors. Nor do they have access to Yahoo's logs which would require a court order. All they have are client-side, cut-and-pasted text, which at best we can assume appeared on the baiter's PC. This, after some content is removed and PJ staff editorial comments are added then appears on the site. So-called evidence is abridged and amended. Often there is no time-stamp information. No date in any case. The PJ buster's ID is some anonymous one created on-the-fly. How can anyone still be convinced it was legitimate in the vaguest sense. There was a manufactured chat log posted in the followup forum by a contributor as well... ooopsie.

"I've said it many times I don't want the innocent hurt." Neither do I. PJ is hurting more people than the police is legitimately prosecuting. If there is just ONE case where a PJ "bust" ends up arrested and convicted, even after PJ supplied tainted evidence, then I may have second thoughts about PJ doing some good. Read the article I posted the link for and perhaps you'll see how PJ is hindering rather than helping.

PJ Buster

I look forward to hearing from your side of things. I am patient, but, am working on a strict dealine. I no way did I mean to suggest any one was a "chciken" to talk.

And, sir or maddam, just because I work for a school publication means nothing, but I can understand your hesitance.

Talk to you soon,
James Baetke, the Rocky Mountain Collegian

What you all are doing is exposing the weirdo's and i'd do it to,i'd like to know how i can help out.If i had a daughter and she was talking to some guy and he was going to come see her,i'd make his life a living hell.

PJ Buster, Berfore you haul off and call me dumb let me inform you. Every citizen has the right to keep all information private rather than public. I had to go to the DMV and fill out a piece of paper that seals all of my info from the general public. I have an unpublished telephone number. I've never been convicted of a crime, so I'm not worried about that.

The police Do get involved in some busts. Ones I can refer you too are italiangermanmale, xcowboyx (something like that. I can tell you that because I worked on these "busts". I did not call the police, but I know that they were involved because I talked to an investigator. All info posted is verifiable through computer forensics. If I were accused of something like this and did not do it, I would get the police involved and demand that be done. Who wouldn't?
PJ Buster I think your the hypocrit- Who are you to check anyone out? Sound familiar.
I'm not responding to you anymore because 90% of what you say are blatant lies. Why don't you make suggestions on how pedophilia should be stopped since you know so much? Once again you have not once backed any of your lies up. Wonder why. You see nothing good in PJ and that's fine, all you seem to be interested in is enabling pedophiles.

"Entrapment laws only apply to government agencies, and not to private watch dog groups"
This comment was stated on this news site:

http://www.kptv.com/Global/category.asp?C=49596

They have showcased Perverted Justice in a series of news reports.

Anne said: "Every citizen has the right to keep all information private rather than public. I had to go to the DMV and fill out a piece of paper that seals all of my info from the general public. I have an unpublished telephone number. I've never been convicted of a crime, so I'm not worried about that."

That's telling. Why did you go through the extra trouble to have DMV seal up info. Privacy should be a given, not something ordinary innocent citizens need to go out of their way and sign some forms to obtain. I bet most are not aware they even have that choice. Same with unpublished telephone number. Why did you elect to be private? Are you guilty of something? Mine is in the phone book. Hence I am at risk of PJ stalkers accusing me of this and that, as is their hobby. I haven't been convicted of a crime, not even charged. But that's not the point. PJ operates outside of those legal classifications anyhow.

You said: "You see nothing good in PJ and that's fine, all you seem to be interested in is enabling pedophiles" - Perhaps you need to re-read the collateral damage chapter on my website, points one through five:

1. Predators become better predators
The PJ site aids real predators in honing their skills in detection avoidance. Also, a real predator will now destroy evidence thanks to the self-appointed private eyes outing him, before real law enforcement has a chance to convict him of real charges if there are any.

2. Children at risk
The PJ site increases the risk to real child victims that a real molester may have abused. With their identity revealed and an arrest imminent in their mind, they may now elect to eliminate witnesses [ assuming PJ ever catches real molesters with a history of this type of abuse, which has not happened yet ].

3. Perverts band together
The PJ site provides a forum/network to molesters to contact others of their kind. The PJ archive is a convenient list of phone numbers and address, forming a support group. Real molesters, rapists, and child abductors could see this as a handy directory of peers. That’s assuming we’re dealing with real criminals here.

4. More porn for pedos
The PJ site boasts a treasure trove of sexually explicit adult/child sex scenarios for would-be pedophiles who seek such material for arousal. The bonus is, the chat logs are portrayed as real – which serves to heighten their effectiveness beyond fantasy stories. Taken to the extreme, in one example an employee was fired from innocently viewing the PJ site – she was mistaken for a pervert for just perusing the site.

5. Porn available to under-aged
The PJ site is not “adult-checked”. Therefore, it exposes under-aged people to lewd, sexually explicit XXX-rated material not befitting a young reader. The very people PJ aims to protect are handed large quantities of pornographic writing that is not readily available anywhere else on the internet. Certainly not in such close proximity to what is ostensibly a child protection service. The PJ site masquerades as a child protective instrument while paradoxically exposing them to harmful material.

Anne,
The whole "you are enabling pedophilia" argument is getting rather tired. Not only is it a classic ad-hominem attack, it's the worst kind of false syllogism:

A: Perverted Justice catches pedophiles,
B: PJbuster does not agree with what Perverted Justice does
C: Therefore PJbuster enables pedophiles.

Not only are these lines of argument faulty, they serve only to alienate those who are "sitting on the fence" over this issue.

I do not agree with what Perverted Justice is doing either simply because I believe this type of vigilantism will ultimately cause more harm than good. When people are impassioned by such a visceral issue, it tends only to enflame the mob.

How long will it be until an innocent bystander is destroyed by your righteous indignation? Will you will willing to stick around when that happens?

Secondly, your group fosters an unhealthy "the ends justify the means" mentality. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why this is. When the subject of children (albeit these teens and pre-teens) come up, people tend to ignore the more rational side of their nature.

But Anne, the ends never justify the means. Never. I mean, come on, that's basic philosophy 101 stuff right? You do understand the dangers involved when you subscribe to such a philosophy don't you?

Third, there is no accountability or transparency. You say everything can be verified by computer forensics but, the fact of the matter is, we just don't know. Rather than just taking your word for it, can you show us a sworn statement by any computer specialist that this is true? Is Perverted Justice willing or able to open up their operation to a disinterested third party for an audit?

These are questions I believe are going to have to be answered one way or the other. Until you can prove otherwise, this whole site is a house of cards built with slight of hand.

-Decipher

It seems that many of you think what Perverted Justice is doing is against the law. What are any of you doing about it? There has been talk about busts being made up, I have to know why no-one is reporting this illegal activity. Do you really think the people running the site would be dumb enough to make up busts? Don't you know that government agencies have investigated them. If you think they are missing something contact them. I'll provide the website. I'm so tired of reading this and that is illegal when it's not....
http://www.fcc.gov/
Phone:
 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)

TTY:
 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322)

Fax:
 1-866-418-0232

E-mail:
 fccinfo@fcc.gov

If you look at PJ's information page it has specific information regarding opening any bust to forensic testing.

Decipher- What I think about PJ Buster is what I think, you can believe what you want. Every time I have asked for proof of things he/she claims as truths he/she fails to give any. Instead he/she addresses every other apect of my posts, and seems to forget to provide proof. If you look at one of my first posts I offered to get him/her info and he refused. PJ Buster wants to believe what he/she thinks the truth is not what it actually is. PJ Buster has blamed the"child" rather than the adult. So yes I do believe there is more to PJ Buster than just a concerned citizen.

PJ Buster- Not that it's any of you business, but I work in the medical field. I take extra precautions to make sure all of my personal info is not available to the public. Now run along call the authorities and make sure to fill me in on how the investigation is coming....Laughable
BTW- You complain about PJ's website. Your geocities thing is a joke. It's not even your own website it's geocities! You have no contact info. Maybe on Pj you don't have the address of the owner of the site, but that common with most companies, but at least they provide the owners name. Since it's YOUR site what's your name??? Seriously call the cops your site will do little. Your a liar nothing you have said is truthful. Why are'nt you filing lawsuits. Oh I know because EVERYTHING THEY ARE DOING IS LEGAL YOU JUST DONT LIKE IT. Don't talk about integrity you have none. Your a coward who can't back anything up.

People busting people busting people.

I accidently told you to go to the wrong place to get police info.
If you go to www.perverted-justice.com it's on the main page under police information. Just for the sake of saying it one more time the police have investigated some busts.

Anne,

Keep setting up those straw men, it's good exercise for me to knock them down.

I've never said what perverted justice is doing is illegal. That is for a court of law to decide (which will eventually happen when you guys either "bust" an innocent person or one of your underlings perpetrate an act of violence. It's only a matter of time).

What I AM saying is this whole operation is unethical, immoral and philosophically unsound.

You keep alluding to children in your posts. The fact of the matter is, there are no children; just some dude over the age of 18 pretending to be teenager who claims to be sexually experienced beyond their age.

Please tell me, how is pretending to be a teenager who claims to have had many over-aged boyfriends, asks for pot, alcohol, condoms; explains in detail her/his sexual experiences doing anything to help catch real pedophiles? This is what you want right?

By definition, a pedophile is interested only in prepubescent children (not a 15 year old). They usually take up to SIX months to "groom" their victim (not a 20 minute conversation). Pedophiles show a huge rate (up to 85%) of recidivism. Tell me, how many people has PJ "busted" who actually have a record of pedophilia.

I'm going to say it again Anne. You are intellectually on very shaky ground. You are allowing your emotions cloud your reasoning. I would say that your group subscribes to the notion that two wrongs make a right. However, I don't believe anyone over there actually thinks what they are doing is the slightest bit wrong.

Let me also point out, Anne, that your statement about PJ's web site is another example of an ad hominem attack. The look and feel of his page has nothing to do with the substance of his argument.

You also tend to appeal to emotion quite a bit. Again, this is another logical fallacy and has really nothing to do with the discussion on hand.

Let me just ask you one more time. Is PJ willing or able to open up its operation to a disinterested third party for an overall audit? Can or will PJ produce any sworn statements by a computer specialist that their chat logs are, as you claim, untainted?

Your explanation of well, I asked and they told me everything is on the up and up just doesn't cut it. As far as I know, you are not a computer specialist. You certainly aren't a disinterested third party.

-Decipher

Anne said: "Don't you know that government agencies have investigated them" - No I do not know that. Neither does anyone else reading that claim. There is some reference that the inception of the PJ concept may have had opinions rendered by some legal entity. Nothing on record though. You can rest assured that if PJ was not under CURRENT investigation, they are certainly now. Rest assured authorities have been contacted and are aware of PJ activities. From ground roots local law enforcement, to somewhat higher than the FCC, and points in-between.

Anne said: "Do you really think the people running the site would be dumb enough to make up busts?". I told you there was a manufactured chat log posted in the follow forum... somehow this person got ahold of the "bust's" ID, logged on, and was then baited by a new PJ baiter. The chat log was posted and the fake wanna be pedo admitted it was all made up.

Anne said: "If you look at one of my first posts I offered to get him/her info and he refused." - You offered me, from being "in the business", glossy brochures about what a sexual predator us. I have researched this type of information on legitimate sites, clinical psychology and legal. Thank you just the same.

Anne said: "PJ Buster has blamed the"child" rather than the adult. So yes I do believe there is more to PJ Buster than just a concerned citizen." - I have? I have said a child, such as the fictitious one portrayed by a PJ baiter, with such past history of prolific sexual activity, has got more issues of cyber stalking than the hapless target. I never said an adult who has REAL intent to meet a REAL underaged person is legally off-the-hook according to the laws of the land.

Anne said: "I work in the medical field. I take extra precautions to make sure all of my personal info is not available to the public." - Then I'm sure you've received counseling on how to go about privatizing your personal records, This is not common knowledge to the ordinary person, nor may such privilege in fact be extended to persons not employed in similar job fields. A person's information is, for the average citizen, public. DMV information is available for some states through the internet. Innocent people like myself would never think of going out of our way to hide such public records, if we're even aware they're public. Yet innocent people are "outed" by PJ every time a list of potential pedophiles is posted during an identification hunting orgy. "Do you know you have a pedophile in your workplace? Ooops, wrong name" - but that workplace address remains on the PJ forum and is implicated and tarred. Through our anti-PJ efforts, we have had entire forum threads removed, precisely due to companies, schools, legal entities, and other names being dragged through the muck. If your place of work appears there during some "bust", rightly, or erroneously posted by some basement-dwelling, frothing cyber punk playing Sherlock Holmes, I'm sure you wouldn't be too thrilled.

Anne said: "You have no contact info. Maybe on Pj you don't have the address of the owner of the site, but that common with most companies, but at least they provide the owners name. Since it's YOUR site what's your name." - I do have contact info in the form of an email address. PJ site has similar. There is no owner's name on PJ either - unless you think Xavier Van Erck or Phoebus Apollo are real names. LOL. Or perhaps the registered site owner is one Alejandro Elias Rubio of Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico with a contact telephone number listed in Mississippi. The deeper you dig trying to figure out who's behind PJ, the crazier & creepier it gets.

Anne said: "Just for the sake of saying it one more time the police have investigated some busts." - Whoop-tee doo. Have they made arrests based on PJ's tainted evidence? Have they stated PJ has caught a re-offender? There's a reason PJ has a strict rule against making first contact with police agency. PJ members are told this under penalty of dismissal. Any thoroughly investigated "bust" will open PJ up to intense scrutiny of its methods - which would become on-record. We can't have that, can we.

PJ Buster- You should have stuck with the name you used on PJ's forums. jj_nobody suits you much better.

BTW, maybe part of your problem is your looking at websites. Maybe if you had some information from accredited people who have studied this diease for years you would have a idea what your talking about..

Anne,
What name do you go by on the forums? Can you prove that PJ Buster is indeed jj_nobody or, is it just another wild ass guess on your part?

I see where "pj is corrupt" posted that HE was jj_nobody (look at the first few entries on this blog).

You see, this is the problem Anne. You make acquisitions without a shred of proof. Again, can you prove PJ buster is jj_nobody? If so, let's see it. If not, why the hell are you posting such things. And besides, it's not even germane to this conversation. [This type of argument, by the way, is called a Red Herring].

You are pointedly dodging any questions asked here while falling back on any number of logical fallacies.

You said "Maybe if you had some information from accredited people who have studied this disease for years you would have a idea what your talking about.."

You are essentially saying my sources are more credible than your sources because (presumingly) I work in the medical field and you don't. This is called an Appeal to Authority and does absolutely nothing to prove or disprove your point of view.

So, let's review:

False Syllogism
A: Perverted Justice busts perverts
B: PJ Buster does not agree with the methods used by Perverted Justice
C: Therefore, PJ Buster is an enabler of pedophilia.

Ad-Hominem:
I suspect PJ Buster is a prior bust. I'm going to look into that and let you know either way.

Red Herring:
PJ Buster- You should have stuck with the name you used on PJ's forums. jj_nobody suits you much better.

Appeal to Authority:
Maybe if you had some information from accredited people who have studied this disease for years you would have a idea what your talking about..

Those are the ones I just skimmed through the past 5 minutes. I can go on and on.

I'll ask you again Anne. Is perverted justice.com willing or able to open up their operation to a disinterested third party for an audit?

Is perverted justice.com willing or able to release their records of their busts to a computer specialist for complete verification of authenticity?

-Decipher

HMMM... It seems a reserve Deputy from the Clackamas County Oregon's police department had to resign recently due to being caught soliciting a minor on the internet. Guess who did the bust. That's right kids perverted justiced.
I don't care if people don't support Perverted Justice. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I'm just really tired of hearing what they are doing is against the law. It's really not. Everything Pj Buster keeps on rattling off are lies. Pj Buster used to post on the Perverted Justice forums. Don't you find it weird that he never told us that.
Sure Pj Buster theres a "investigation" going on. In your head. Really who's conducting the investigation. I'm sure they called you right away to see if you could help at all.
Like I said previously. You are not a concerned citizen, you are someone who has a personal problem with PJ. I only wish I had asked others about you sooner. As soon as I said PJ Buster theyy knew who you were. AKA JJ_NOBODY

I meant to post the link to the above Bust. This is part of a series fox kptv news channel did with perverted justice. It's similar to the Milwaukee busts.
http://www.kptv.com/ Look under special reports.

I would love to be able to provide information on what police investigations that have gone on.

Decipher- I'm done proving anything to PJ Buster. So far I have proved everything I have said. What proof do you have that PJ is doing something wrong. PJ Buster is jj-nobody and pj is corrupt. Why don't you look through the posts and see who has provided proof of everything. It's me.
I and others have begged for proof of any of the allegations he's made, and I've said this numerous times. why don't you ask him why he can't provide proof. You won't get an answer. Yes I do work in the medical field. I can provide proof of what I say, and give people who don't really understand all this places to go where they can get credible information. I don't think diecting people to any old website is credible. Honestly if I was a person who new nothing about pedophilia I would want credible info on it rather than searching through the internet. No-one should just believe in what PJ is doing because I or anyone else says it's credible. They should do there own research. I'm not trying to act smarter than anyone. I want people to make there decisions based on facts, not my opinion.
Do you want to audit PJ? Are you in a position to do that. If not get someone involved that can. Call the FCC they can tell you about auditing PJ. Call anyone that can do something if you believe PJ is doing something wrong.

Anne,
Again, and please read this carefully...
I never said what Perverted Justice was doing was against the law. That is for a court of law to decide (which will happen when you guys "bust" an innocent bystander or one of your underlings perpetrate and act of violence).

Again, what proof do you have that PJ buster is jj_nobody? Just because you asked some people on your forums doesn't make it a fact. What tangible evidence do you have? I have read the above posts several times. I certainly cannot come to the conclusion that "pj is corrupt" is in fact "PJ Buster". How can you?

Look, I don't know either one of these guys so, I don't have a dog in this fight. The fact of the matter is, these unfounded allegations go right to the heart of your credibility. You just spout things off as if they were factual without backing them up. If this is how you act on a public forum, why should any of us believe you act differently when you are conducting your "busts"?

Also, I never said I wanted to audit perverted justice's operation. Obviously, I'm not a disinterested third party. The question stands however. Is perverted justice willing or able to open their operation to a disinterested third party for an overall audit? Is perverted justice willing or able to turn over all computer files (I.E. chat transcripts) to a verified computer specialist for verification?

Those questions still have not been answered Anne.

-Decipher

Anne can you please, on behalf of PJ and all here who are eager to understand them better, directly address some of the issues that have arisen so far:

(1) I don't see how I enable pedophilia. I have listed the first five (5) points of collateral damage that the PJ phenomenon facilitates, each one pointing out how PJ enables pedophilia or puts children at risk. They have not been addressed nor refuted by you, Anne.

(2) Anne thinks I am a prior PJ "bust". Wrong again. I have never knowingly chatted with an underaged individual about sexual things. In fact, when one does say their age, I advise underaged people to leave adult rooms. You said you were going to check into it. I have no idea how one goes about searching for an expected result. Not very scientific, and doomed to failure in any case.

(3) Anne's belief I am jj_nobody is not only red herring, but completely false. I have always been "PJ Buster", or on another BLOG perhaps "pjbuster". My site is called "PJ Buster" Pretty consistent.

(4) The stuff about me looking at websites. Yes indeed, I do learn things from websites where clinical studies are presented by trained professionals (in Anne's words: "accredited people who have studied this disease for years"). What's wrong with that. Can Anne say that ANY of PJ staff are accredited people who have studied this disease for years? I think not.

(5) In my last comment I have addressed the "government agency endorsed PJ" myth.

(6) I have shown that PJ is in fact dumb enough to manufacture chat logs. I should have put a link - but i wouldn't want the PJ site hit counter to go any higher than it needs to be. It would just boost their egos more.

(7) I have reinforced my stand against real pedophiles... But Anne is convinced I'm a slimo because I disagree with PJ. No wonder few people speak up against them. The example you set, Anne, with your wanton labeling is scary. By extension, PJ's labeling of the innocent should frighten us all.

(8) I have addressed the private/public record issue where Anne has completely missed the point of how regular joes are at risk of being targeted. Anne is immune, being in the medical field - as she stated she enjoys privacy that I wasn't even aware is available. I have illustrated how wrongly implicated people and companies have been removed from PJ's forums, after substantial effort by anti-PJers contacted those companies. And PJ does not remove stuff lightly - so my guess is they were threatened with legal action to have it done.

(9) I have addressed the legitimacy issue regarding email addresses, PJ's site vs. mine. And have pointed out for the 2nd or 3rd time in this blog that PJ's sites are founded on fraudulent domain name contact information. AngryGerman (oh wait, Xavier Von Erck, or wait, ANONYMOUS) started off PJ on a geocities site too.

(10) I have completely dismissed the "police have investigated some busts" claim. That's typical FOX news speak. Anne watches TV and takes her cues from there. LOL.

I don't know what more I can do. So far Anne has managed to ignore ALL the above issues.
Anne, I know you have a new set of unfounded accusations about me ready to go, but can you please stick to the issues. You said "Pj Buster used to post on the Perverted Justice forums. Don't you find it weird that he never told us that." Another new and irrelevant issue. Have you posted anything on PJ's forums in the past? For your information, what I did post were cordial greetings plus I asked for some clarifications about a "bust". Is participation on the PJ forum in a supportive manner while presenting serious concerns here on this BLOG a problem? PJ does not allow dissenting views to be aired on their site... so people must find alternate venues such as BLOGs. Am it not allowed to participate at PJ's because I'm not 100% in lock-step with their methods and motivations?

Take your time. Take one issue at a time. But please stick to the topics. You've got 10 to choose from.

If anyone on here wants legitimate info on pedophilia let me know. I'm done posting on here. There are ceertain people who are posting under different names. PJ Buster- maybe should should see a professional, are you switching names on here to act like you have support or do you actually have split personalities. I'm sure PJ will be up and running. I've addressed everything you asked for. I will not address PJ Buster's issues anymore, because he has provided proof of nothing.

It's odd that you did not say anything about using different names on her. Why don't you tell everyone why you are really banned from the PJ site. Tell everyone why you and your wife are banned. So long wannabe. Since I wont be around anymore I hope you and your split personalities enjoy the rest of your conseversations. You thought I would not find out. I told you I can get to the bottom of anything. I knew there was more to your story. Pj Buster, pjiscorrupt,decipher.nobodyimportant.
Your a loser.
BTW- I've told you numerous times I'm not speacking on Pj's behalf. Tell your wife I said hi

Decipher- I know who Pj Buster is. He completely avoided that though in his response (once again). If you have serious issues bring them to a different site. I'm sick of reading PJ Busters different personalities on here. No need to respond I wont be visiting this page again. There are many real forums that are dealing with people's concerns. Where you can't change screen names like you do your underwear. Good Luck

I think I'll just let Anne's words speak for themselves here. /sigh...I'll miss you Anne. You were rather intertaining.

-Decipher

Um, entertaning even..

-Decipher

I was referred here via the Shrubtography (http://www.shrubtography.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4) forum.

I have doubts about this whole thing.

I didn't read all of the posts above, but scanning over a good many of them, I encountered a great deal of what I can only call grave ignorance and witch hunting. For example, those who support this vigilantism hate pedophiles. So they pose as girls no clinical pedophile would be interested in, and then spew their bile against the people who fall for their trap. This reminds me of some of the old witch tests they'd use in Salem back in 1607.

Here are some of my main concerns:

1) None of the p-j people seem to know what a pedophile is, or it is defined very vaguely. A pedophile is not a sexually experienced male who seeks an encounter with a sexually developed and experienced female. Here's what the American Psychological Association says about pedophilia in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th edition): It is a "recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children." A 14 year old girl is not a "prepubescent," especially one who readily acknowedges a history of sexual experiences, and who expresses a desire to engage in one with the victim. I think if these P-J folks were being honest, they would pose as 6 year olds who were only interested in talking about their teddy bears or whatever.

2) Perverted Justice will never catch a true clinical pedophile. I touched on this above, but a pedophile is someone who preys on innocence, who gets a thrill on sexualizing the nonsexual child. A 13 or 14 year old girl who talks brazenly about past sexual experiences will not be of any interest to a clinical pedophile. One commenter above spoke passionately about wanting to expose people who want to harm innocent children. Well, here's a suggestion: pose as innocent children, not as teenage tramps.

3) Their tactics encourage violence. Many people have an intense hatred for pedophiles. Some may have been molested when they were 6 or 7, as one commenter mentioned above, but don't realize that the man who shows up to meet that licentious 14 year old girl he met online is not likely the man who would rape 5 year olds. But their hate is so irrational that anyone would do.

I am sure some would say that there is no difference between someone who rapes a 5 year old, and someone who has sex with a sexually conscious 14 year old. There is however a huge difference. In fact, a brief look at how other cultures treat the matter will shed some light. In the Netherlands, 12 is the legal age of consent. Other cultures have varying ages. Ours is abnormally, puritanically high at 18. Edgar Allen Poe married his wife when she was 14. He was 27. I suppose the P-J folks would have him plastered on their website. It was not uncommon in the past for a young girl of 14 to marry a man much older. On the other hand, nearly every culture, except some African bush cultures, condemn pedophilia- sex with prepubescent children. Obviously they consider them to be two distinct things.

One poster said that no matter what one's ethical or cultural norms are, in this country, it is considered statutory rape. Oddly though, other matters of statutory concern don't seem to interest these folks. I don't see them out exposing people who drive over the speed limit with the same zeal. That's why I have to think that these people are either right-wing religious wankers out to burn some witches, stupid punk kids who want to have fun ruining someone's life, or just sick bastards who get a thrill out of posing as teenage girls.

Bye Anne. Half of us will miss you.

Anne, this is the 3rd time you promised to not respond and/or go away. So I'm guessing you're reading this.

Alright, so in addition to being a pedophile, "laughable", a "moron", an "idiot", a "fool", a "loser" and to top if all off I now have multiple personality disorder. And oh yes, I'm married. You're telling me things about me I didn't even know.

Anne said: "It's odd that you did not say anything about using different names on her (sic)". - Did I not say, 11 hours prior to your post, item #3, that I am consistently "PJ Buster"? Are you going mental? Do you read? You now say PJ Buster is AKA pj is corrupt AKA Decipher AKA Nobodyimportant. You forgot I'm also jj_nobody. Since I am Decipher, why do you address your next post to Decipher as if he's a separate person? Are you talking to yourself? News-flash, Anne. I am not an anti-PJ one-man-band. There ARE many people against PJ.

Anne said: "Why don't you tell everyone why you are really banned from the PJ site." - I have never been banned from the PJ site. I am a member in good standing there, you might say.

Anne said: "I've told you numerous times I'm not speacking (sic) on Pj's behalf". On February 6th you said "I have told many of the contributors concerns of mine and we worked together so we both understood where we were coming from" AND "I'm not a contributer but I post on the site." You are so humble, Anne. A little research by another colleague has uncovered that you are in fact part of the PJ inner-circle. You participate in their infamous conferences - to those of you not familiar with this little gem, this is the phase where PJ breaks down the wanna be pedo's will by getting him into a private chat room. Here numerous senior PJ interrogators scream CONFESS, CONFESS while the bewildered victim whimpers "what is this, who is in charge, what did I do?". The replies are anything from "shut up, fuckwad", to "you ruined your life, we are your worst nightmare", and the like. Anne screeches "baby raper".

To now claim you don't represent PJ is truly amazing. You are the essence of PJ.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to address any of the ten (10) points I brought up earlier. You remember, the ones about PJ. Not about my wife. Tell me, how many kids do I have? What's the name of my goldfish? Go ahead. You know. We really want to know those things more than anything about PJ ruining lives on a daily basis. That's why we're here.

Hey Eric, I just wnat you to know I was not posting on here to start fights. I think I've done what I can to inform people. I know I could have handled a few thing differenty , But I think all of Acuusations are completely false. Pj Buster and his wife were banned from the forums, due to improper behavior. They completely know who they are. There is also an investigation going on regardin PJ Busters site. He posted government documents which is against the. Pj Buster is a pedo or wanna be, that is what hia real problem is. I can't post here anymore because I think I just talking to PJ Busters different personalities

Decipher- your ignorance is so evident. Why don't you go study pedophilia. I Have for the past 8 years. Pull you head out of your ass for 1 minute. someone like you who wants to promote pedophia. Believe me whether you like it or not the site is staying up. Oh before I forget look up the big words your using t
BTW Pj Buster you might want to come up with a reason for why you posted a fraudulent document on your site. I called the district attorney. He knows nothing about the letter and it is fradulent to not site the source of your letter. So long pervert lover.
BTW- I wont miss all of the people on here that could care a less that children are being raped. And actullay blame the children
And now there''s another post by Brain that thinks it's ok for this to be going on. I suggest you pack your bags and head to one of those states that allow perverted activies.
None of you people have done any research I've been working with these people for years so I have much more experience than you.
Bye Dumbasses and remember PJ Buster to take steps to keep your private info sealed. It's so easy to find all of your information. How's your wife??

Anne... no worries. I'm just a bystander. But things have been real lively around here and when a caught a rumor of you retiring, well... I think my traffic would go down a little. Not the other way around. Scuffles are good promotion for a website. I don't mind it one bit. In fact, I encourage it.

Anne,
Posting name:
Posting name at Perverted Justice: Irisheyes
Location: Chicago
Occupation: Nurse
You recently took some classes at Harper Community College

Do you want more? Is YOUR information really that private?

Anne:
I thought you were going away. Who is obsessed here? Well, since you are sticking around and have decided to attack my intelligence (look up the big words [I'm guessing you were going to say in a dictionary]).

I don't have to look them up Anne, I already know what they mean but. You see, I actually paid attention in school. And to tell you the truth, they aren't very big words at all. I'm pretty sure they are words any well educated person in the medical field should know. But, that's OK, I'm used to the Ad Hominem / Red Herring type of arguments you throw out there.

And just where is all this vitriol coming from anyway? What did I ever do to you? Have I ever attacked you personally? I mean "Bye Dumasses"...is that any way for a lady to talk?

Let me just post one more time (not for your benefit Anne but for everyone else that reads this thread and draws their own conclusions):

Is perverted justice willing or able to open their operation to a disinterested third party for an overall audit? Is perverted justice willing or able to turn over all computer files (I.E. chat transcripts) to a verified computer specialist for verification?

These are very simple questions. They do not provide a window into the state of my intelligence. Asking them in no way mean that I am ignorant as you say or am unfamiliar with the problems of pedophilia. These questions do not mean I am an enabler of pedophilia or any other sickness. They are simply questions that you refuse to answer no matter how many times they are asked.

I do hope you stick around Anne. You are doing more to prove my point than I ever could.

-Decipher

Another thing,
And I'm sure PJ Buster will address this too.

What is up with the veiled threat:

"and remember PJ Buster to take steps to keep your private info sealed. It's so easy to find all of your information. How's your wife??"

What are you implying here? Are you saying that if he doesn't keep his information private something is going to happen to his wife? I want everyone on this thread to read that again.

Anne: "AND REMEMBER PJ BUSTER TO TAKE STEPS TO KEEP YOUR PRIVATE INFO SEALED. IT'S SO EASY TO FIND ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION. HOW'S YOUR WIFE??"

Are you saying we should all live in fear of your life ruining machine because we hold a differing opinion? Were you speaking on behalf of perverted justice when you wrote that?

Anne, are you communicating a threat over an electronic medium? It certainly looked that way to me.

This is what anyone with a dissenting view can expect. Veiled threats, vicious slander, invasion of privacy and complete misrepresentation.

-Decipher

I guess we're off-topic again. Or still.

Anne said: "Pj Buster you might want to come up with a reason for why you posted a fraudulent document on your site. I called the district attorney. He knows nothing about the letter and it is fradulent (sic) to not site (sic) the source of your letter. So long pervert lover." - OK. Again, what government document/letter are you talking about? I have no idea. It seems neither does district attorney. So I guess it's all in your head.

Anne said: "BTW- I wont miss all of the people on here that could care a less that children are being raped. And actullay (sic) blame the children." I don't believe there are ANY people on here that don't care about children being raped. Are you saying ALL of the people on here don't care? That's a pretty bold accusation. Unfounded as usual.

Anne said: "And now there''s another post by Brain (sic) that thinks it's ok for this to be going on. I suggest you pack your bags and head to one of those states that allow perverted activies (sic)." - I suggest you pack your bags and head for a country where gestapo tactics are commonplace. Ply your trade there.

Anne said: "None of you people have done any research I've been working with these people for years so I have much more experience than you." Uh-huh. Since you have access to a narrow population sample, many of whom fit the description of pedophile (I assume), how many would you say have been caught by PJ? I would like to know in exactly what capacity you have been working with "these people". Please forward to my email the name of the head of your health care institution, head of psychiatrics or counseling/rehab will do. I would like to send them some chat-logs of your behavior towards people with a mental disorder.

Anne said: "Bye Dumbasses and remember PJ Buster to take steps to keep your private info sealed. It's so easy to find all of your information. How's your wife??"

Feel free to send me the information. I can correct any errors for your records. You are *this* close to a slander suit. Not to mention making threats against my family. Oh, and my wife says hi again. Sends her best.

As a former law enforcement officer involved with investigating cyber crimes against children, I would like to point out the general view of all the law enforcement professionals I know concerning the "Perveted Justice" site. First, they complicate the work of professionals in the field who actually DO "bust" criminals. Their pretend "busts" do absolutely nothing constructive, and make it harder for the REAL cops that are working those rooms to do their jobs. I personally know officers who have had contact initiated by these people, and then wasted valuable time and resources before they were able to find out that they were talking to "wannabe cops", as opposed to "wannabe pedophiles". Since law enforcement's resources are limited in this area in the first place, interference by a bunch of amateurs who do not know what they are doing is actually allowing cyber criminals who may have otherwise been caught (and PROSECUTED......the key word here) to escape justice and continue their depredation. I would suggest these people stick to video games or something which they may understand, rather than interfere where they do not belong.

Oh, and because you are a cop... that makes it OK? While our public schools fall into a state of ruin and the budget deficit soars... we pay cops $60,000 per year to surf sex sites. Sounds like the perfect job... for a pervert!

Eric,
I suspect your last comment was a clever tactic in creating more traffic for your blog. If so, OK. You gotta do what you gotta do :)

But, on the offhand chance it wasn't for that reason, I gotta ask. Do you really believe what you just wrote?

-Decipher

Eric,

I suspect that you rode the "short bus" to school (or still do), so I will try to explain in simple words why police officers frequent chatrooms used by teens. By going to these rooms and posing as teens, it allows them to be contacted by adult child predators who have no idea who they are actually chatting with. If this person's intent is to initiate contact with that underage person for illegal sexual activity, then the officer will go along with the predator's "game", and in many many cases is able to arrest the predator for a variety of crimes against a minor. This arrest is based on unassailable evidence and virtually ALWAYS results in a conviction. The reason for this is that real cops are very careful to avoid "entrapment" (such as initiating a contact). The strange "wannabe cops" from the Perverted Justice site, on the other hand, know nothing about the chain and custody of evidence, or what is entailed in a REAL investigation where the suspects computers are impounded and forensically analyzed to confirm the particulars of the case. I have read some of the chat logs on the Perverted Justice site, and have noticed that some of the site's "reporters" have come right to the edge or actually crossed the line of legality in their conversations. I predict that given the increasing number of REAL officers trapping online predators and criminals that it is just a matter of time before one of these people find themselves in some very hot water after contacting a name on the list and assuming they are talking to either a teen or a pedophile. When the knock on the door comes, saying that you were only playing around for the Perverted Justice site will carry about as much weight as helium.
Richard

Yes, I am serious. I don't think these online "stings" are a good use of my tax money.

Richard... You don't need to explain what a sting is. This entire post is about stings, setups, entrapments. Where you been?

As far as short buses, I work with special ed kids. I would expect a little more civility from a cop. But maybe that is expecting too much.

Eric said: "Oh, and because you are a cop... that makes it OK? .... Sounds like the perfect job... for a pervert!" - As an impartial moderator, or so I thought, your attacking a former law enforcement officer is a shock. I would venture that someone doing legitimate sting operations on sexual predators, for the motivation of a salary, would if anything lend more credence to his motivations. The PJ cop wanna bes are doing all this for free - which would open up the possibility that their reward is, shall we say, puerile in nature. Just throwing out an idea. Let's hope at either have the best interests of innocent victims at heart. Eric, with all due respect please leave the job of pervert-labeling to experts such as Anne of PJ. She has had a lot of practice in her job function.

We can assume an investigator of cyber crimes against children has passed psychological screening, has undergone rigorous background checks, and has been properly trained before his duties are assigned. PJ gamers have had no such scrutiny.

As I've stated before, PJ's antics are hindering law enforcement rather than helping. This is the first time cyber-crime is mentioned as a more general issue. Soliciting under aged sex fits under that heading.

Officer Richard said: "I would like to point out the general view of all the law enforcement professionals I know concerning the "Perveted Justice" site." If you wish to make your views heard, on-the-record, then please contact us. Alternately, your input may be welcomed on such BLOGs as PoliceWorld.net (for law enforcement professionals, family & friends): http://www.policeworld.net/forums/ . The topic of Perverted-Justice has come up there, but without credible people as I hope you are, such discussions deteriorated into name calling. The moderator had to lock down the thread for a month due to an ex-cop working from inside PJ treading on an individual's privacy. Hey, not every cop is ethical. Sorry.

aha ha ha... yeah, a real "sensitive" cop who makes fun of retarded kids. Think about it.

My guess is that many of the people on this board are not the people they claim to be. Goes with the territory, right?

And I'm not defending PJ.

I think the tactics are a little ridiculous on both sides. But hey, that's just me. I've never been a big fan of stings.

Eric, Richard made a comment that you are dense/slow, etc, in an oblique reference. He had no way of knowing that you work with special ed children. Even if he did, can he not challenge your thinking ability without you getting bent out of shape that he was somehow insulting the kids in your charge? If he is a real cop, the sensitivity you demand is not always available after a lifetime of dealing with the bottom feeders of society. It's called becoming jaded.

You said "My guess is that many of the people on this board are not the people they claim to be. Goes with the territory, right?" - Well, since I am just about everyone on this BLOG, except perhaps you, Eric, it's just you and me against the world. I think Anne would agree I just added Richard to my repertoire of multiple personalities as well. I'm working on absorbing Anne too, but one of us may require some gender modification.

You said: "I think the tactics are a little ridiculous on both sides. But hey, that's just me. I've never been a big fan of stings". If I had to chose, my vote goes to qualified professionals carrying out stings. At least they are accountable. To written procedure, to the law, and ultimately to the taxpayer. PJ free-wheeling mob is accountable to no one. Checks and balances? We don't need no stinkin' checks and balances.

I guess being immature is part of the job if your job involves pretending to be a child on the internet.

C'mon... this is getting tedious. Anyone care to proposition me? C'mon... let's talk dirty.

Eric said: "Anyone care to proposition me? C'mon... let's talk dirty." - hmmmm, what do you look like? Are you a virile, rippling whip-meister with glistening bod? Tell me more. I feel a stiffness coming on. No wait, this isn't a private chat? Ahem. Yes, as I was saying, you are a vigilant responsible webmaster with a growing BLOG.

Oh man, I hope this thread doesn't die out! :)

I gotta tell you Eric, this is the longest comment thread I have ever seen on a BLOG. Good job!

I was busted by PJ and specifically said I would not meet for sex on many occassions in the chatlog. However, the phone conversations that they posted were all LIES. My life has changed due to this and partly because of the lies they put. I never left my house to meet yet Im one of the worst rated offenders.

SlanderedandLibeled, I don't understand how they posted phone conversations, lies or otherwise. Remember, one of PJ's minor-voiced baiters telephoned you, not the other way around. If this "bust" happened recently then perhaps you can obtain phone records with the help of law enforcement. Perhaps it's time you fought back to clear your name. Of course the case will be made as to why you gave out your phone number in the first place. Cyber-sex? PJ still exists because people are shamed publicly, and broken mentally in their kangaroo courts - the infamous conference. Are you angry enought to push back?

Our pal Anne, AKA lilqt6137 AKA 'irisheyes', part nurse, part X-ray technician, part mental health counselor, and all PJ, says about another "bust" On Jan 17th: "He's driving me nuts...........................HELP. Lets get him in a conference to break him down." Then in a private chat, Anne tells him "I don't work for the website... But I do this for a living. ... Like I said I do this for a living I know the law."

Here is more of Anne's work with her patients: "FUCK YOU", "your an asshole", "YOUR A CHILD MOLESTER" , you know, all the usual stuff a compassionate counselor that's treating a mental illness would say. Realizing she misrepresented herself, LIED about taking down information, and broke PJ's internal protocol, she makes the following public apology in the followup forum: "I promise to have his info taken down once I confirm it was actually his friend. I'm usually very cautious with what I say, and I know we are not suppose to be making promises like that even though I know it won't be proven to be someone else. But, I did tell him earlier I do not work for the website".

Come back, Anne, we miss you.

Yeah,
Anne is a piece of work alright. Not only is she a little busy body (Nearly everyone of her posts starts with "I just called the pervert" or "I just talked to the baby raper"), she had absolute dillusions of gradiuer. For example, when one person kept saying..."I don't know what to do here Anne, please help me...I'm so tired, I have to go to bed, please help me" She says "Ok, I got some paperwork to fill out and some phone calls to make".

Yeah, right.

Slandered and Libled, I would encourage you to get ahold of PJbuster in private (you can find his email address by hovering over his name). I would then encourage you to stop by his webpage and www.shrubtography.com/phpBB2

There is an ongoing, uncensored discussion going on over there right now about PJ.

Best of luck.

-Decipher

Here is another example of how Anne treats her victims:

This is a letter she recieved from one of the people she was harassing. Notice her reply on the bottom:

Subject: PLEASE HELP ME~!
To: lilqt6137@yahoo.com (this is me)

To whom it may concern,

I received a call from you (on my cell) concerning a
conversation that appearantly occured on my computer.
What concerns me more than anything is that MY CELL #
was given out under MY YAHOO ACOUNT appearently while
speaking to a 13 YEAR OLD GIRL! I'm a little more
than angry because my rights, privacy, and trust have
been violated. Although I do live at this residence
unfortuantley i'm not the only one who uses this
computer. Anyway, this is my computer, and therefore
i need to find out what i can do to fix any problems
that have occured. I should let you know that that i
had a falling out with a friend/roomate of mine who i
believe is the person that gave MY # to some girl. It
has happened before but as far as i know, never over
the net. This person is currently in the process of
moving out because of other problems that have occured
between us. I have asked him about the message i
received on MY CELL PHONE and he claims to know
nothing about it. In the past i have been rather
leniant about the use of my computer and i always
leave my yahoo ID signed in. (mainly because we all
have mutual friends that use yahoo to communicate)
I'm concerned because it seems like you're the one
being more sincere here. I'm not sure who i can trust
concerning this matter, but I need you to help me fix
this problem if there really is one. I can't begin to
tell you how upset i am about MY PERSONAL phone #
being issued to strangers i don't know. I have lost
more than a friend, i've lost a part of my own
idenity. I'm sure you can understand how that makes
me feel. PLEASE CONTACT ME AS SOON AS YOU GET THIS!

WOW can you believe his friend would do that... Poor guy. Here we are thinking we have him and all along we had the wrong guy. I really feel horrible about this.BOOHOO. I should call him and apologize....
Alright enough of that. Lets start calling this dirtbag.

Here are some more of Anne's antics. This is taken from a chat log she had with the same victim above:

I hate this guy. All he can do is lie, and he sucks at it. He has major problems. It's a long one so sorry for boring you...But hopefully he'll make you as angry as he made me.

Just me and him
lilqt6137: hey are you around??
cash_carmichael: you there?
cash_carmichael: please help me clear my name
cash_carmichael: god i wish you were here
cash_carmichael: it's ruined my life because i've told my friends and i think they don't believe me
cash_carmichael: what can you do to help?
cash_carmichael: can you help?
lilqt6137: What's going on Lisbon?
cash_carmichael: hi thank god you are here
cash_carmichael: can you help me?
lilqt6137: Well that depends are you still stickin to the story that it was not you?
cash_carmichael: that is not a story
cash_carmichael: you don;t beleive me?
lilqt6137: Ok. Who lives with you?
cash_carmichael: god
cash_carmichael: what can i do?
lilqt6137: Don't be suprised if I don't believe you. That is the story 99% of pedophiles use.
lilqt6137: Who do you think did it?
cash_carmichael: go ahead abd believe what you will, but things are kinda falling aprat in my life and at the sanme time coming together
cash_carmichael: and*
cash_carmichael: i am so flustered
cash_carmichael: i'm a mess
lilqt6137: WHO DO YOU LIVE WITH?
cash_carmichael: well the question is who i did live with '
lilqt6137: who
lilqt6137: Jennifer?
cash_carmichael: first of all i don't know if i can trust you
cash_carmichael: everything i say gets twisted
lilqt6137: what do you mean trust me?
cash_carmichael: i hate it
cash_carmichael: well everything has been taken way to far
cash_carmichael: i would like to be able to tell you the truth without hurting anyone else
lilqt6137: Ok well if we are going to continue like this than your right I can't help you. You need to tell me what the hell is going on and we can try and figure it out from there
cash_carmichael: things have got out of hand
lilqt6137: Well then I'll assume the truth is it was you?
lilqt6137: If we are going to contine you need to be honest. I don't like to play the cat and mouse game.
lilqt6137: Why is it taking you so long to reply??
cash_carmichael: listen i recently got out of the army , i'm trying to go to school and get an education, therefore i have to live afordable i had a roomate that didn;t get along with me and keep in mind we shared everything
lilqt6137: till when?
cash_carmichael: till when what?
lilqt6137: did you have aroomate?
cash_carmichael: yeah i still do
lilqt6137: well you said "had a roomate"
lilqt6137: Ok so are you saying you think it was him.
cash_carmichael: i live with several people now just one other person, i'm the only one who has a good rep, credit etc..... i let them live with me because they are my friends
cash_carmichael: one has a reaon to hate me
cash_carmichael: thats not the point
cash_carmichael: i'm the point now
cash_carmichael: i shouldn't be
cash_carmichael: i feel like you can help, i have talked to alot of people what can i do>
cash_carmichael: ?
cash_carmichael: you there?
lilqt6137: IF you tell me what happened I can But you are telling me nothing.
cash_carmichael: what can i tell you?
cash_carmichael: what do you want to know?
lilqt6137: who do you think did this?
cash_carmichael: i know who did this, but i can't do anyting about it
lilqt6137: who had you account info and your phone?
cash_carmichael: what can i do?
cash_carmichael: i'm already acsused
cash_carmichael: i hateit
lilqt6137: Why can't you do anything about it. Tell me who it is
cash_carmichael: all my roomates
cash_carmichael: i share my life
cash_carmichael: god
cash_carmichael: i did
cash_carmichael: i hate it now
lilqt6137: what are you saying.
cash_carmichael: i have 2 roomates that i live with
cash_carmichael: one is moving out
cash_carmichael: why?
cash_carmichael: well
lilqt6137: your all over the place I have no idea what your talking about.
cash_carmichael: becase he has been a problem to both of us (the other roomates_
cash_carmichael: ahhhhhhhhhhhh
lilqt6137: SO WHO IS HEEEEEE
cash_carmichael: you want a name?
lilqt6137: now you got it.
cash_carmichael: god
cash_carmichael: i can't do that
cash_carmichael: lo
cash_carmichael: why i don't know
cash_carmichael: damn
cash_carmichael: i'm sorry
lilqt6137: Let me tell you something. If one of your roomates did this you should call the cops. Do you realize how serious this is.
lilqt6137: What do you mean you can't tell me..
cash_carmichael: actaully i called alawyer and i am pressing charges
cash_carmichael: but i didn't want to tell you that
cash_carmichael: this is personal, and i an public
cash_carmichael: i hate it
lilqt6137: Listen I'm not an idiot.
lilqt6137: I do this for a living.
cash_carmichael: well what can i do?
cash_carmichael: tell me?
lilqt6137: I don't work for the website.
cash_carmichael: sheeeeeeeeeeeessh
lilqt6137: But I do this for a living.
cash_carmichael: well what can i do?
cash_carmichael: i feel fucked
cash_carmichael: i am fucked
lilqt6137: Well start by telling me your friends name
cash_carmichael: it's not me though
lilqt6137: A lawyer would not press charges for this..
cash_carmichael: what good would that do with getting me off the site?
lilqt6137: Like I said I do this for a living I know the law.
lilqt6137: YEAH
cash_carmichael: no but she will for him not wanting to pay rent anymore
cash_carmichael: which he refuses to do
cash_carmichael: your not listening
cash_carmichael: damn
cash_carmichael: help me
cash_carmichael: please
lilqt6137: Still small claims buddy. Lawyer would not take that on.
cash_carmichael: well she is familly she will
cash_carmichael: and she is
lilqt6137: You know what your pissing me off. I'm listening to you try and bullshit your way around this.
lilqt6137: Now let me tell you whats gonna happen here.
lilqt6137: You say you were in the military.
lilqt6137: They will be notified.
cash_carmichael: listen it's not me!
cash_carmichael: god
lilqt6137: I have all your family information. They will be notified.
cash_carmichael: who can i trun to for help?
lilqt6137: And There is going to be a full investigation into this
cash_carmichael: why are you doing this?
lilqt6137: Since you have such a ood lawyer friend you may want to ask for her help on this.
cash_carmichael: wow
cash_carmichael: you don't belive me then do you
cash_carmichael: what can i do
cash_carmichael: shit
cash_carmichael: i'm lost
cash_carmichael: here
cash_carmichael: it is the truth
cash_carmichael: i know it sounds shity
cash_carmichael: lol
lilqt6137: You are denying these allegations. A call was placed to you. They talked to you. The authorities will be the ones that sort this out since you want to play games.
cash_carmichael: i know
cash_carmichael: yes
cash_carmichael: it id
cash_carmichael: did
cash_carmichael: to my PHONE
cash_carmichael: yes
cash_carmichael: i know
cash_carmichael: i share that thing
cash_carmichael: or i did
cash_carmichael: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
lilqt6137: How old are you?
cash_carmichael: listen all i want to do is find someone i can talk to
cash_carmichael: civialy

There are reams and reams of this kind of stuff over there. CONFESS OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED! CONFESS CONFESS! The Red Guard could not have done it better.

Wow, the above snippets are really demonstrative just how "contacting" [WordEdit: Stinkzone condemns harassment in all forms] Anne is. She even threatened PJBuster. And, the best part, all from a highly trained health care professional!

If she is the creme of the crop, they have more problems than I thought.

curious

That's all that my colleagues and I ask for - an open debate AFTER you see their side for what it is. We cut-and-paste their own logs from their website. Of course if they say these chat logs are manufactured, well, look who's using MY argument.

Remember that I asserted their motives were suspect... not simply on a quest to fix the world?
Remember I mentioned that PJ staff have major skeletons in their closets and possibly serious psychological issues themselves?

OK, time to get down and dirty. I'll take on one PJ cultist at a time if I have to. I dispatched Anne. Now let's move up the ladder to someone that matters...
Meet tattooed_indian_guy. He is cofounder of the site and a MAJOR contributor. 1281 posts, which works out to over 2 per day since the site's creation in July 2002.
In the case of PJ vs. kingdom_cum13 AKA i_am_getting_help, February 10, 2004.

Let this chat-log speak for itself (from PJ's followup forum, one of their inquisition conferences where they break the subject's will by yelling from numerous PJ'ers). The accused has the ID i_am_getting_help.

tattooed_indian_guy (2:29:14 AM): What if say, there was a program where you could be like denied the act of sex for a while- sort of a drug you could take, like a "chemical castration". How would you feel about that?
tattooed_indian_guy (2:29:41 AM): Would you mind going without sex for, say, a few months? A year? Two years? In order to rehabilitate yourself?
i_am_getting_help (2:29:43 AM): I'd do that
tattooed_indian_guy (2:29:49 AM): Yeah, you would?
tattooed_indian_guy (2:29:57 AM): Because see, that's what I'm going through, right now.
...
tattooed_indian_guy (2:31:04 AM): Someone like you abused someone like me when I was a kid. And guess what? Now I"M the one paying the consequences. So yeah, I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time feeling bad for you right now, when I'm incapable of having sex because I'm terrified of what the fuck it means. So no, I'm probably not the guy to talk to about this. Don't ever fucking say my name again, okay?
tattooed_indian_guy (2:31:16 AM): Just stay the fuck away from me.
mr_pj_meister (2:31:37 AM): How much time do you spend online chatting normally Matt?
captain_howdy_4u (2:31:48 AM): yes... lets get back to that
captain_howdy_4u (2:31:55 AM): TIG... go take a chill
tattooed_indian_guy (2:32:03 AM): You- a silly little fuckstain online- you can get laid anytime you want, while I have to deal with all these weird issues? And YOU DON'T WANT CONSEQUENCES? Fuck you.
i_am_getting_help (2:32:16 AM): lately, spending a lot of time, maybe hours, talking with PeeJ members and no one else
tattooed_indian_guy (2:32:30 AM): Yeah? Can I have someone come by and look at your archives?
...
tattooed_indian_guy (2:36:05 AM): Just answer me. What do you want me to do? You PM'ed me wanting to talk to me, and you confided in me that you wanted the ear of one of the site's founders. Well, here I am. Make your case.
tattooed_indian_guy (2:36:19 AM): What, exactly, did you wanna discuss with me?
tattooed_indian_guy (2:36:24 AM): Here I am. You have my attention.
i_am_getting_help (2:36:31 AM): everyone's asking me questions... if everyone chills I will
captain_howdy_4u (2:36:54 AM): Gee... I guess he didn't know that you were an abuse survivor
.....
tattooed_indian_guy (2:39:32 AM): Look, I'm fuckin' CELIBATE because of people like you. I'm pretty much involuntarily living the life of a monk. What do you think I'm gonna say to you?
mr_pj_meister (2:39:35 AM): He made a bad decision guys. According to his therapist....
captain_howdy_4u (2:39:37 AM): you don't want to be ganged up of for the same reasons you tried to fuck a little girl
tattooed_indian_guy (2:40:17 AM): Do you really think I'm gonna speak in favor of you, when we have a staff meeting?
tattooed_indian_guy (2:40:21 AM): I kinda doubt it.

Far be it for me to make light of tattooed_indian_guy's issues. But I would recommend he seek professional psychiatric counseling for his phobia of sex. His current outlet in the form of lashing out at those who CAN have sex is not healthy for either party concerned. Cleverly he targets those who are condemned for their alleged intents by the general public, and by visitors to PJ's followup forums who are subjected to PJ's one-sidedness. Would tattooed_indian_guy pass psychological screening & mental competency at this point? Should he, in his current impairment, be doling out diagnoses of others?

Curious- I did not threaten PJ Buster.talking about.

I hope that anyone that reads what decipher copied and pasted goes to the perverted justice forum and reads the entire chat log. Decipher chose to copy and paste the part that would make me look bad. There was much, much more to the conversation. I did not contact him either. I left him a voicemail and he contacted me through instant messages. He was not forced in anyway to continue talking to me. He blamed his girlfriend, and his roomates. Anyway, I really do hope that you take a look at it. While your at it look up everything I ever posted. I'm sure decipher did, and that was the only one he was able to manipulate into what he wanted it to be. I will not post here again regardless of what they copy and paste, but I think this shows how shady these two are.

Curious- I did not threaten Pj Buster. Decipher copied and pasted a small portion of the chat log. I would ask that anyone that reads the above goes to the Perverted Justice site and reads the entire log. I assume he only took that portion because he's trying to make me look bad. It's just another sign of how shady he is. I also did not contact him. I did leave him a voice mail, but he contacted me through instant message. I also never told him his information would come down. He blamed his girlfriend and his rommates and would not tell me who it was, (which is a common excuse), but would you cover for a friend that did something like this. I certainly would not. Anyway, I told him once he tells me who it is and it is confirmed I will have his info taken down. The reason I apologized in the forums is because I should not have said that because I'm not the person to remove information. Regardless I said it would be removed if he proved it was someone else. It just goes to show how shady decipher and PJ Buster are.

Sorry about double posting. I thought the first one did not post.

Anne,
Do you feel your views have been misrepresented in some way? I'll tell you what. I'll give the the option of sending me a "Right of Reply". Make sure you state your full name and address for the record.

While I'm waiting for that, let me put a few more points out there for everyone to consume.

Posted by "Anne" AKA Irisheyes on Dec 30, 3003:

I just got done reading Sam's ROR. I must say I hate this kid more every second. Who the hell is he to judge anyone on this site. If it were not for our so called attacking and bantering these pedophiles would continue. I will make this guys life as miserable as I can until I'm told not to by an administator. As for Jacob he obviously has not told Sam how despicable his acts were, since Sam still is not sure he needs help. It just goes to prove Jacob is looking out for himself and the band. Finally, this is not just a mistake Jacob WAKE UP YOUR FRIEND IS A PEDOPHILE.

And more recently Feb 7th, 2004

I just talked to Ray. He says he sent three ROR's and has not gotten a response yet. I informed Ray of the consequences if he is lying (flyers, phone calls). He seemed genuinely upset and scared. He kept swearing he sent in the info. I told him to send it again tonight from his regular e-mail address and also to CC me. Ray also said he attended counseling on Monday 2/2/04, he gave me the name of where he went and the counselor's name and #. If anyone needs that info PM me. I only asked him to cc me on the letter because I'm concerned for his two daughters, and I'm not sure what's going on with ROR's (or lack of).

So, I'll be sure to give your ROR due dilligence Anne.

-Decipher

When I first came across the "perverted justice" site I was mildly amused at the idea of a bunch of mouse-potatoes with too much time on their hands and limited lives playing "cop" in an inept attempt to embarass "pedophiles" (or at least what they perceive to be pedophiles despite no professional experience).

But after reading some of the chat logs and their discusion forums (Before being "banned" for making fun of these chuckleheads.......hehehe) I have come to the conclusion that aside from the obvious problem of their making it easier for pedos to escape REAL justice, this site is staffed by a peculiar group of people that obviously have as many problems as the pedos they claim to be after.

Former "pedophilia victims" that can no longer have sex due to lingering psychosis..."social workers" who rabidly attack, threaten and humiliate strangers, and (God forbid), at least one freak who claims to work with disabled and retarded children.

Fortunately, this site is going to be a self-limiting problem. When they inevitably accuse the wrong person, criminal charges and civil suits will result. Yahoo will turn over all the participants registration data which even though it is no doubt fictitious will mean nothing when linked to their IP numbers. Their ISPs will release their REAL names, addresses, etc., and all this information will become available to anyone who wants it. The people who hide behind anonymity to use the internet as a playground for their own sick natures will become as vulnerable as those poor idiots that they entrapped.

My advice to those of you in this forum that feel a gut-level disgust and creepyness at these fools antics is to just sit back and watch what happens to them. Perhaps when they are gone REAL law enforcement professionals can do the job that they are trained to do and actually take PROVEN internet predators off the street.

P.S. As a former police officer I have put DOZENS of sexual predators in JAIL......I didn't call them on the phone and tease them.

Richard

Anne, who the hell are you to demand someone CC you their RoR. You are not the PJ site administrator. You are not to judge one's RoR sincerity. That's the job of the audience, I thought. PJ's role was only to "inform the public", based on chat logs.

Your attitude proves that PJ posts only what they want people to see - after screened by the likes of you.

How come you haven't addressed the tattooed_indian_guy's mental health? He is the one attending PJ board meetings, in charge of ruling this and that. He is your superior. He is cofounder of PJ. And that should scare the crap out of everyone. Not an ounce of caring for the real victims of sexual abuse that go on independently of PJ's manufactured world. It's all about vengeance. Do you have a similar past traumatic experience? Are you a well balanced functioning member of society to judge others?

With the recent "bust" PJ is hammering at a respected doctor. Sending out letters to everyone under the sun is a two way street. PJ is sending letters out to American Physiological Society, It will turn focus onto PJ and their methods. I'm sure a few in the medical profession will come to PJ and do a little analysis of their own regarding PJ staff's suitability to wield such considerable power over other people's lives. Perhaps in their zeal, PJ have finally stepped over the line. Let's hope so. Attacking medical practitioners while claiming to have any medical training of their own.

One PJ lackey ('claymore', joined 5 days ago, 52 posts - over 10 posts per day, Occupation: Heuristic Eschatologist*) mailed the target "Speaking as one professional to another, I have but one thing to say..." which implies he is a medical doctor. That lackey gloats and denies his professional standing in the forum: "OK, I wrote my first Letter To A Perv. I tried to take the one-professional-to-another tactic. I'll leave the more emphatic messages to others."

More laws being broken by PJ'ers. It is an offense to impersonate a member of or claim legitimacy as a member of medical/legal field.

* By-the-way, An eschatologist is somebody who sees that the problem of the world is so radical that it's going to take some kind of divine radical solution to solve it. Eschatologists, all varieties of them, seek to defer and collectivize the meaning of human life. They seek to defer the meaning of life so that meaning won’t be exhausted in the limited, particular present which they occupy. They seek to collectivize it so that life’s meaning will never rest on their shoulders. An eschatologist recoils in HORROR at the idea that he might be individually responsible for the meaning of life.

Thank you, Richard,
As a law-abiding person with no criminal record, no history of trolling for underaged in chats or in real life (Anne's "proof" not withstanding, ha ha), I would like to personally thank you for you efforts to put real sexual predators in jail.

You said: "My advice to those of you in this forum that feel a gut-level disgust and creepyness at these fools antics is to just sit back and watch what happens to them."

That's one option. Do nothing and PJ will eventually self-destruct. But innocent lives are being ruined on a daily basis by PJ's accusations. It's one giant Jerry Springer fest over there - and not to minimize some of their entertainment value, that train wreck is doing more harm than good.

I hope in your capacity, Richard, you will apply your knowledge of law and due process, and perhaps help protect innocent citizens from the rabid PJ mob. They have ex-cops on disability working FOR those hooded anonymous vigilantes... perhaps overcompensating and frustrated at their inability to affect real change. It's time more cops work in the interest of real people with names, addresses, wives and children to support, like you've been doing throughout your career.

I have ALWAYS encouraged everyone to read the chat logs and decide for themselves. Then read PJ's followup forum of whipped up hatred. Their improperly conducted sting, illegitimate evidence, tampering of said evidence with editorial commentary designed to bias onlookers is a complete farce.

Perhaps you can help be with this, Richard. Is it an offense to incite hatred against an individual?

PJ Buster,

Under the Revised Code of MY State, and I would suspect many others not to mention Federal statutes, what these loons are doing is a clearly defined felony which can be prosecuted in criminal court, or pursued under civil law. There are two factors which leave them vulnerable.......One, the vast majority of their contacts commit no prosecutable criminal act. Two, they deliberately post those people's personal information with the obvious intent to harm their reputation and livelihood, and implicitly encourage other people to contact them and harass them (despite their totally laughable "boilerplate" disclaimer). The only thing standing in the way of a very successful civil lawsuit is the shame issue with most of the people "exposed". However, as I said before, it is only a matter of time before they "expose" an innocent victim who has the common sense and guts to show them a REAL rape in civil court. Furthermore, as they continue to interfere with legitimate law enforcement investigations, some DA is finally going to have enough of their shit and hand down indictments on their entire creepy crew. As I said before........wait and watch.

Richard

PS..........check your site's e-mail

I would love to "wait and watch". It is our hope that soon we will register a legitimate company with the government, with a website attached - a real server, real contact information, real EVERYTHING. Anne's and other's poo pooing geocities better put up or shut up themselves.

We will then begin actively contacting admin at PJ, ex-"bust" victims, and of course continue to advise affected innocent bystanders - such as companies who have had their names dragged through the mud in PJ's followup forum. We will encourage any one of the 1000's of PJ lemmings to slander us, because we will provide real names to target. Our attorneys will be manning the phones like some sort of telethon. LOL. Come one, come all. Little piss-ant PJ clones will be taken down. If they want to strike a plea-bargain and admit they were acting under mental coercion from the PJ cult, the little creepoids behind PJ will have their real identities subpoenaed. Game over.

PJBuster is doing a great job of profiling some of the major contributors on Perverted Justice. I want to add a post of my own.

"AntiPerv" joined the forum in August of 2003. He now has 707 posts to his name. Though he is not one of the site's "inner circle", he contributes a major amount of information in the follow up forums.

This post will give everyone here a little window into the mentality that goes on over there. "AntiPerv" is responding to a case in Arkansas where a 34 year old teacher had a sexual relationship with a 17 year old girl. The age of consent in Arkansas is 16. The two are still carrying on a relationship to this day, two years later.

(Now, don't get me wrong, I don't believe teachers should be going around having sex with their students but, in any event, this is clearly not a case law enforcement should get involved in. Nor is it a case of pedophilia [this word is so overused in the forums it is in very real danger of losing all meaning]).

Anyway, check out the following exchange:

Enys:
Second of all, it's been TWO YEARS and now she is 19. They are well beyond what could be considered "sexual abuse" - They are in what we call a "relationship."

AntiPerv:
Yeah but she was (17) a minor when it happened. Regardless of what age she is now he's a child fucker. When she's 25 he will still be a child fucker. If they stay married for 50 years and have long and happy life..guess what... yup... he's a child fucker.

(Do you understand how this works? Even though a sovereign state has collectively decided, through the power of elected representation, that the age of consent in Arkansas shall legally be 16, AntiPerv and his cohorts labels anyone who acts within that law a "child fucker". Nice).

The thread continues:

Enys:
Besides, 18 is not the de facto standard age of consent the world over. It sits on waaaay far right tip of the spectrum.

patric862:
Yea, aren't third world nations great?
Forgive me if I come across as too agressive [sic], but what you've been saying in your few posts makes you sound like a pedophilia apologist.

(Having legal, consensual sex [albeit arguably immoral as a student/teacher relationship] is nothing more than pedophilia in the eyes of those at Perverted Justice).

Curiouser and curiouser.

-Decipher

Anne, what I am referring to as threatening is the following:

"Bye Dumbasses and remember PJ Buster to take steps to keep your private info sealed. It's so easy to find all of your information. How's your wife??
Posted by: ANNE at February 22, 2004 02:13 AM"

The reference to the wife is an implied threat. This is clear. The only defence you may have is that you can say you did not write this. Did you?

curious

Curious,
Yeah, Anne really kind of screwed up there. But, then again, out and out threats are what the lemmings over at PJ do best.

-Decipher

PJ Buster said "...If they want to strike a plea-bargain and admit they were acting under mental coercion from the PJ cult, the little creepoids behind PJ will have their real identities subpoenaed. Game over."

Not that I care but why would it be "game over" if their real identities are shown. Couldn't they just keep doing it if you know who they actually are. I mean that tattooed indian guy sends people to his house, not a good idea, lol.

lookielou said: "Couldn't they just keep doing it if you know who they actually are."

If PJ's mission was genuine and their staff above reproach, you would think so.

'Icarus', a major player in PJ (1190 posts since Oct/03 - over 8 per day) - talked about the anonymity of site founder Xavier Von Erck AKA AngryGerman - short form is AG in this February 10th chat:

icarus_pj (4:43:53 PM): they need a name [smokescreen Alejandro Elías Rubio of Somora, Mexico] to register a site, that is the person who used their name
i_am_getting_help (4:44:04 PM): of course they need a name
icarus_pj (4:44:16 PM): AG has many enemies. he would be foolish to cough up his own
i_am_getting_help (4:44:33 PM): of course
icarus_pj (4:44:44 PM): Mexico is a bit more relaxed in their needs
icarus_pj (4:45:07 PM): and the internet has no boundaries

You tell me why their identities are such a closely guarded secret. There is not a single real identifiable person associated with the hooded mob. No one wants to take responsibility for the damage they cause. Even in the TV infomercials, PJ agents are in shadows or talk over the telephone. Could be any minion whack-nut looking to be validated, claiming to represent PJ for all we know.

If a real pedophile was upset that he got sentenced and prosecuted... well, he's no threat to PJ since he was duly processed and is in jail. Right? The point is that PJ is "outing" 100s of INNOCENT people who may not take kindly to having their family, job, and everything else destroyed. Some might have the wherewithal to fight to get their reputation back and furnish their attorneys the name & addresses on a silver platter - a much simpler task now for which the accused would save money in private investigator fees.

Not to mention that vigilantism is a two-way street.

Open recruitment and lack of rigid guidlines. I support the idea of making the internet a safer place for children but it seems to me many of the people contributing to PJ are just playing out a extension of there video game hijinks. Just waiting to tell the next target how "owned" they were so they can gain face in the group.

No one is going to go on the record to speak out against PJ, I already saw what they did to a lawyer in the Kansas City area for being hired to help out one of the targets. The harrasment is similar to what a White lawyer might have undergone for helping a African American during the civil rights movement.

What percentage of men do you think would give out personal information over the internet through coercion with the promise of sex? Particullarly when there is nothing immoral or illegal about the sex. I would be surprised if that percentage is less then 95%.

As much as this is a wake up call for parents about the dangers of the internet. It is also a wake up call for men of all ages and sexual prefrences about the dangers of the internet.

Nobodyimportand said: "Open recruitment and lack of rigid guidelines. I support the idea of making the Internet a safer place for children but it seems to me many of the people contributing to PJ are just playing out a extension of there video game hijinks. Just waiting to tell the next target how "owned" they were so they can gain face in the group."

It goes much deeper than that. Spend about an hour or two over on their forums. Do a search on members of their "inner circle" or their major contributors. You will soon see a pattern of past sexual/emotional/physical abuse forming. Some of these people have some VERY SERIOUS issues.

For example, Batesmotelgirl (one of their contributors/baitors) claims her mother emotionally and physically abused her as a child. She claims she suffered bouts of anorexia and bulimia. Alcoholism runs in her family and from the looks of some of her posts, she may well be suffering from that illness as well.

It has already been pointed out that Tatooed_Indian_Guy suffered some kind of sexual abuse in his past. Apparently it affects him so badly that he currently has a phobia of sex.

Upon a few more hours of investigation, I'm sure you will find this similar patterns with many of their major contributors.

I'm not making light of these issues. Indeed, some of these problems have plagued my own family. However, after learning of these facts, one must surely question the motives of said contibutors.

-Decipher

I'm not really sure why someone would need to be concerned about disorders and such as to effecting motivation, even though it may relate to qualification.

Personally I would be concerned more about how someone associated with the site could take revenge on a specific person because of a non related event. Or even worse how someone who is not even related to the site could be financially motivated.

Hypothetically someone could gather information on a target, draw up a forged html version of the site, forward it to the target, and ask for monetary compensation to keep it from being posted. Though I consider it to be a valid scenario which would require very little computer knowledge, I would never recommend or suggest anyone do that. Its for your information only and I don't condone or encourage illegal activities.

I think there is a healthy debate here.

My opinion:

vigilante justice is not inherently wrong.
A much older man going after a young girl is inherently wrong.

so you can see that what perverted-justice is doing, is going to evoke a lot of sympathy.

And quite frankly, if people get enjoyment from busting criminals, great.

However, its not all roses for perverted-justice. The fact is, it quickly becomes obvious that a lot of these folks have very serious power and control issues and are so distasteful that they are just as distasteful, disgusting, and even prone to criminal behavior as the people that they are catching.

I agree, these people they are 'busting' at least in the high profile cases that they advertice...would definately have committed a crime if they had been given a chance. What is not as obvious, but becomes obvious to those who research carefully, is the vigilantes are power mad people who I wouldn't trust not to commit crimes either.

So now I'm a perv supporter? WRONG. It's disgusting, but lets get professional police to address the problem...and why aren't they?

mythoughts: "...but lets get professional police to address the problem...and why aren't they"

Um, let's review. PJ is manufacturing a problem where there is none. Their baiter persona is a sexually aggressive & experienced underaged female who pushes the right buttons of lonely, trusting people. The baiter is projecting a real knowledge of having sex at a young age - perhaps due to actual experience. Subsequently the PJ baiter lashes out at the victim in a fit of rage. That target is now the focus of all their pent up hatred. The chat log mockery -

PJ FAQ: "it increases the readability of the chats. It gives you a bit of "gallows humor",it gives you a bit, a smidgen of entertainment. It is why people keep coming back to the site; ... enough to keep people coming back in order to exercise righteous condemnation along with getting a couple snarky laughs in. Is that wrong? To some people, sure. But on a pragmatic level, they are essential to the success of the site"

... along with followup forum hate mongering by PJ contributors and PJ wanna bes alike further discredit this site as a child safety advocacy organization.

Are real pedophiles being targeted by PJ's entrapment? I don't think so. Are career pedophiles who groom their victims through months of actual meetings including getting to know the child's family, doing yard work or renovations, house-sitting etc, likely the type who give out phone numbers and describe their professions in a 1/2 hour chat? Not likely.

PJ is on the wrong track. There are serious issues with many of its key operators' pasts. The "we're against pedos" could be nothing but a marketing ploy - to keep on doing what they're doing for the purpose of getting high on power and deceit of others. Plus a little sexual titillation along the way. If you doubt there can be such a psyche at work - independent of their superficial "save the children" modus-operandi, then I would urge readers to take a look at: http://www.i-mockery.com/pervs/default.asp , where punks pose as 18 or 19 year old women (that's right, legal age), and engage in chats with older men. Their information is then posted publicly. Nothing illegal took place at all. Just some punk ass gamerzzz going "ha ha, cyber-sex, you loser, you should be killed".

Oh, I'm sorry, let their I-Mockery pages state in their own words:
"This page contains log files that were captured from AOL Instant Messenger chat sessions that myself and some friends had. We changed our profile to say we were young women, interested in things like sports, fitness, video games, sex, etc. (basically the kind of stuff that any pervert on the web would probably be looking for in a woman)"
...
"Once we each had our new identities online, we simply waited and it was amazing how fast some of us started to get messages from complete strangers asking us all sorts of personal questions. Obviously perverts who should be killed."
...
"So have a field day teasing the living hell out of them. They deserve it. Keep in mind that all of these people contacted us first. We never met them, just out of the blue they'd send us a message. Yep, they asked for it! Muahahahahaha!"

I'm not connecting I-Mockery site with PJ, yet. After all the I-Mockery "busts" are almost 3 years old. But a frequent email contact there 'antiperv' happens to match a PJ user ID 'Antiperv'... who in his intro at PJ starts off claiming he was a AIM user. Thin evidence to be sure. But hey, PJ has has done more with less evidence. My mention of the I-Mockery site was simply to illustrate that due to the similarity in the sites' approaches, there is a possibility that marginally psychotic people are behind PJ as well. All the antics I have witnessed so far from them seem to support that hypothesis.

nobodyimportant said: "No one is going to go on the record to speak out against PJ, I already saw what they did to a lawyer in the Kansas City area for being hired to help out one of the targets".

I should just quickly show you there are people who speak out against PJ:

WBAL-TV (Channel 11 News, Baltimore, Maryland)
TheWBALChannel.com: 'Vigilante' Web Site Posts 'Pedophile' Information Feb 26/04
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2875630/detail.html

excerpt:

Lee Tien, Electronic Frontier Foundation: "You've got some fairly sleazy people being looked at by a lot of other sleazy people. It's not a very pretty sight." Lee Tien is an attorney for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation. The foundation focuses on civil liberty issues including privacy and free speech. Tien and other critics don't think the Perverted Justice Web site is justice at all. They're concerned the exposure could send real predators into hiding.

AND THIS ONE...

Chatmag.com – Internet Chat News and Help site
Vigilante Web Site Not What It’s Cracked Up to Be" Feb 17/04
http://www.chatmag.com/help/news.html#5

Pete Carr, owner of Chatmag.com:
"With the demise of IRCNews.com we've [Chatmag.com ] become one of the leading sites for chat related news and information.... We at Chatmag take chat safety very seriously, and provide an extensive safety section, including tips for kids, etc."

Well I see there are several exercising their First Amendment Right to Free Speech here, thank goodness the Constitution doesn't give protection to ones stupidity, mainly yours Anne.

For you only being here roughly 24 days, your are the typical PJ'er, you just have to hear the marbles raddle in your head, you blab about facts and figures, identities of people that have posted here and even claim to be in the medical profession. God help us all if you really are, I'd rather kill myself then have a mouthy bitch like you even remotely try to care for me.

As far as your rants about who's facts are correct and who's isn't, exactly what have you brought to the table as evidence that PJ hasn't broken the law, I haven't seen nothing but crap running out of your mouth. As for the facts the PJ Buster has posted on his site, most of that information either came directly from me or was verified by me, oh did I forget to mention that PJ Buster and myself have been working together. Oop's Sorry, but you know now, in case you didn't.
As for the sniffles that was ranted about if it has geocities in it's name it's not creditable, well I guess it safe to assume that everything perverted-justice is now, is not creditable, since perverted-justice also started on Geocities. Just a little tid bit you asses forgot to search out or mention.

For another reason why PJ Busters and my site are running on the Geocities servers, well let see did you ever take into count that there is such a thing as DoS (Denial of Service) Attacks, being carried out by the hackers at PJ? I have the documented evidence and all originating IP Address, that sent me direct DoS Attacks, that all came from the static IP Addresses 207.0.50.10, 64.235.234.138, 64.239.17.7, 216.118.127.194, all registered to the one the only Xavier Von Erck for the domain name perverted-justice.com. So basically a decision was made to move everything to Geocities, see that way if they try to DoS us, they only hamper themselves being on the same server trying to catch wannabe's in the Yahoo chat rooms. But I guess you will dispute that Anne, since you have knowledge in the electronics field, just like you do the legal and medical fields.

Oh by the way Anne, you claim to be a nurse, and have nothing to hide, appearantly you do. I'm calling you on this alleged licensure you have as a nurse. Put it on the line or shut up. So I'm guessing you will shut up, because you have nothing to prove, but should you do prove your a nurse, you won't be long after I get your license.

If you want to challenage me Anne, bring it on, oh did I forget to mention that I also work in the medical field, and I do know what protocol is allowed within the scope of nursing. I think you might want to go back and read really what all you really did post here, there's enough evidence to not only take your license but to have your ass prosecuted. So I'm telling you, your the most misguided, misdirected, ignorant, long windedest bitch I have ever encounter so far in dealing with PJ's tactic's, and til such time as you want to put your money where your mouth is, shut the hell up. Basically, prove what you allege and quit being an Internet Flamer, you just like the rest of the bunch that just has to ramble about something they have no clue of what they are fighting. So crawl back under that rock you was under before you opened your mouth.

Tattooed Indian Guy - dishonorable discharge?

More on Tattooed Indian Guy AKA Frank Fencepost - cofounder of PJ along with Xavier, bills himself as "The first PJ'er". He has (had) rank of contributor (actually participated in doing "busts") and forum moderator.

Tattooed Indian Guy was recently removed from the staff of PJ...

Last post Feb 19
Last bust Feb 20

You won't find him mentioned on the PJ Staff Page anymore. So his profile is a little tricky to find. Here it is:
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?
profile=Tattooed%20Indian%20Guy

If you read his profile you may gain a better understanding of the weird and wonderful minds that created PJ in the first place.

" ... And so was born "PERVERTED JUSTICE", a collaborative effort that has exposed literally hundreds of wanna-be pedophiles so far, and will surely expose thousands more in the months and years to come. As many have noted, only from the two greatest minds in Portland chat could such an unholy alliance be forged."

*** EGO ALERT, EGO ALERT.

"This is the most fun I've ever had in my life. There's nothing finer than the feeling I get when some bastard who thought he was about to "score big" with a ten-year old gets the surprise of his life- my face on his monitor, my voice on his phone, and, in the figurative sense at least, my shit in his mouth."

*** 10 year old? When has PJ ever posed as a 10 year old.

"I just wanna take this opportunity to thank Xavier for giving me the chance to post this "good work" online- without this website, I don't think any of this would make even the limited amount of sense that it makes now."

*** Translation: The PJ site gave Tattooed Indian Guy a way to continue his fantasies, shaming and hounding people, under an "organization" that ostensibly does all this for the protection of children.

Among the drivel, you will find this description on how he used to conduct "busts", pre-PJ days has the following interesting tidbit (I quote):

I started out by cruising Portland chat rooms posing as a 16 year old girl named Brandy. The way the operation worked at that time: was this:
1) Private Message a chatter who seemed to show potential as a pedophile.
2) Allow him to come on to me.
3) Get his phone number.
4) Spam the room about 1000 times, giving his phone number, his name, and a brief run-down of what he was trying to do

So what can we conclude?
- Age of consent in Oregon is 18. See below for thoughts about that.
- He made 1st contact (not what PJ claims to do today - so his technique was improper even according to PJ's standards)
- Spamming the room - his indignation forced onto others (harassment is the pattern)

Here is a handy-dandy age of consent chart, state by state:
http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/
qanda/blageofconsentchart.htm
-- might come in handy when Oregon based PJ performs "bust" outside state. It's not clear from that chart whether there are clear "anti grooming" laws relating to having a mere conversation with a minor. I would be leery of PJ agents talking dirty as a 16 year old girl... are they not engaging in the very same illegality? They are not law enforcement operating under strict guidelines.

Remember that the people PJ "busts" have not been proven to have intent. Giving out a telephone number in a private chat is, worst case, simply setting up for cyber-sex. That may or may not be illegal - that is IF the target is truly convinced he is talking to a minor and not an adult posing as such. I'm not qualified to diagnose, but curiosity, or even pedophilic tendencies (fantasy), as long as not acted upon, are not a threat to society. IF there is a correlation between 1/2 hour on-line chat, and statistical evidence that people engaging in such chat develop into rapists, then I will revise my doubts about PJ doing something useful.

From the PJ Recent Site News Page, 02/27/04

"Recently Perverted-Justice.com spent our time and manpower working on a major group media bust."
"Our contributors worked hard, for no financial reward, to help clean up Detroit regional chatrooms."
"... a good five minute segment without one mention of the PeeJ contributors hard work. We do not do group media busts for financial gain. We do them to help educate parents and spread the word of our goals and mission. WDIV apparently does not give a damn about that."
"Apparently the work of concerned citizens for nothing more than pure reasons is not good enough for Joe Scarborough or WDIV. Apparently that is not worth mentioning, as it is better to credit themselves for all the work performed. I would hope that the thousands and thousands of Perverted-Justice.com supporters will see this as we see this, an egregrious (sic) selfish act by the media putting themselves over for others hard work. It would not have been hard to say "working with a citizen website" or "teaming with perverted-justice.com." Not hard at all.
"We do not put in hard work and hard hours having conversations with these creeps to have our good work ignored and claimed by other people. It is a foul miscarriage and stab in the back by a station and reporter who we sent massive amounts of perverts to for no gain ourselves, but plenty of gain for the station.

Then in their inimitable fashion, PJ posts the telephone number of the WDIV newsroom up for everyone to call and express their disgust at their so called shoddy journalism.

Silly me. I thought it was all about catching pedophiles and making the internet a better place. If for those few days, the PJ crew did the same work they always do - but with the additional benefits of the use of a cool rented house, nice computer equipment, on-site tech support, and free catered food... I would say PJ came out ahead compared to working in their parent's basements as they normally do.

I've said it before and I guess I was prophetic - this is case in point. The heralded media busts are nothing more an exercise in winning a ratings war. Even more despicable is the attempted (failed) tactic of PJ to use the media's taste for sensationalism to create a self-promoting PJ infomercial.

PJ does all this hard work anonymously for a year-and-a-half now and so do its 100s of lemmings. None of them receive accolades for their hard work. Did parents not watch the TV programs and gain a knowledge of the dangers of internet chat rooms? I thought that was the intent & mission of PJ. Does it matter who gets the credit?

Hello all,
I saw a news blurb about PJ yesterday and wanted to find out more, so came to the site. After reading the input in the forum, I am inclined to watch from afar but can't resist making the following comments:
1. The forum would be better if people limited themselves to SHORT replies. (Concise, well thought out, organized and non-emotional)
2. If a person does not have constructive (!)ideas to add, it would be better not to post until you do.
3. Verbose, angry postings do not convince me of anything, quite the opposite. I prefer facts and reason.
4. I feel many good points have been made, but I feel tired after having to DIG them out of a pile of flaming refuse.
5. Here's a trick: reread your own entry before sending it and remove everything non-essential and inflammatory. Let it sit until tomorrow. Read it again. Send if needed.
6. Certainly PJ has done a service of raising public awareness, if nothing else.

Wrong! LOL

Plagarism - taking credit for something that isn't yours. Every self-respecting human, whether volunteering or not, deserves proper credit for their work. It does matter if a News Organization fails to give credit to PJ.com.

It's not the pervs you know who are a danger, it's the pervs you don't know. Which side of the fence would you rather be on - I'ld rather know.

There is major flack about the last media circus at the rented house.... read all about it. Citizens are up in arms.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/8099872.htm

Some excerpts:

The house, near a school, was used for a WCAU-TV news segment on pedophiles. Police cited danger.
By Marc Schogol
Inquirer Staff Writer

Calling the WCAU-TV (Ch. 10) news investigation "highly dangerous, totally unethical and immoral," township Police Chief Lee Hunter said yesterday, "We want to make sure they are not luring pedophiles into our neighborhoods."

Although WCAU has left the house, residents fear more pedophiles who have seen the address on the Internet will appear, so police are making extra patrols of the area.

WCAU officials denied any wrongdoing, but Delaware County District Attorney G. Michael Green and Hunter said the NBC station had acted irresponsibly and potentially disastrously in preparing "Perverted Justice," which was scheduled to air on the 11 o'clock news last night - the final night of the February TV "sweeps" rating period.

Green, whose office is investigating whether any criminal charges are applicable, said law-enforcement authorities run such sting operations only in controlled situations and locations, and only with highly trained personnel.

Without such planning and preparation, Green said, "it was only good luck that no one was injured, no weapons were drawn, no child was attacked, and no citizen who happened to be on the street at that hour was accosted."

Hunter added that WCAU had not notified or alerted authorities, who did not know what was happening until neighbors, seeing an unmarked van parked in front of the Rockwood Road home, called police Monday afternoon.

WCAU news director Chris Blackman said yesterday that the community was not identified in the "Perverted Justice" report, and there was no reason for concern that more pedophiles would appear, because the Internet no longer would lead them there.

"The men that showed up were not random pedophiles - they came for specific rendezvous with a fictitious 14-year-old boy or girl they'd established an online relationship with," Blackman said. "They didn't show up to prowl the neighborhood.

"We would not have done it if we didn't feel confident we had taken appropriate measures to make sure no one was hurt. This wasn't something we went into recklessly."

Blackman said he would not respond to speculation that ratings were a factor. "We've been working on it for a while. Let people say what they will."

The Marple Newtown school board issued a statement last night, which read in part: "NBC-10's ill-conceived plot, while shamelessly pursuing ratings, shows a callous disregard for our children. That NBC-10 chose to conduct this stunt within 500 yards of a parochial school and just a short distance from two of our elementary schools is further proof of its disregard."

In a letter on Tuesday to parents of students at St. Anastasia School, principal Carol A. Cary said: "As you can imagine, our concern is for the safety of our students, in particular those who walk to and from school.

"Chief of police Lee Hunter has assured me that Channel 10 has been removed from the premises... . It is uncertain, however, if any others tempted by the Internet information will arrive at the house.

"I ask that you exercise extra caution at this time with regard to your child's safety."

On a Web site started by angry neighbors, resident Ed Pelc wrote an open letter to NBC, blasting "the irresponsibility and arrogance of Channel 10 news."

Pelc said WCAU had "manufactured news for ratings and greed. You did so with no regard for the safety of our children."

Hunter met Tuesday night with 40 to 50 angry residents, who were considering civil legal action if investigators determined no criminal charges were warranted.

Hunter added, "Channel 10 is going to be contacted by some very higher-up officials of our community and state." The police chief would not give names but indicated he was referring to elected officials from the Newtown Township area.

**************
If PJ wishes to take the credit this time then let them. They were whining they weren't mentioned in another TV infomercial. Now here's a chance to shine and address the concerns of the people. X-boy, take center stage and tell them how all this has improved the world.

As concern continues that more supposed pedos will be directed to that that house, one must ask the question whether any other destinations to which PJ invites chatters are not in similarly concerned neighborhoods with children and schools in close proximity. But I guess it only matters when it hits the evening news - and not when it's a festering website that does this on a daily basis under everyone's noses.

PJ Buster says a problem is being created when there is none. Not true! I heard about this site and decided to give a test run to determine how easy it was to discover pedophiles. I am a male posing as a 14 year old girl. I hardly had to change my typing style. Turn your font pink and the guys don't question. Entering a Chat Room nearly froze my computer as I had nearly 20 requests for private messages. The old, lonely males were always the initiators of the conversation. It took exactly 15 minutes for a 45 year old male to expose himself to me thinking I was a 14 year old girl home from school on a snow day. What is wrong about brining to justice this man? He told me he had sexual contact in the past with young girls he met online...all I had to do was ask him! I didn't turn in his name to anyone, but just used it for personal knowledge that there exists a real problem. I didn't create that man's desire to have sex with young girls...he did.

Adam,
I certainly do not deny that there is a problem with older men preying on younger girls out there. However, I contend that so far, there is no statistical proof that the problem is as pronounced at perverted justice claims.

The problem with perverted justice's approach is that they do not act like the innocent children they claiming to protect. Instead, they role-play a teen (always 13 to 15 years old) that acts sexually experienced well beyond their age. If the folks over at perverted justice are really interested in protecting innocent children, they should represent themselves as such. Instead, they create personas that would rival Paris Hilton's proclivity towards sex and innuendoes. Throw in a few drug references and you've got the perfect 14 year old to fit the perverted justice mold.

There are many other issues I have with how perverted justice operates. I've addressed some of those issues above. I will continue to address these issues as they come to mind.

-Decipher

Adam, was it an adult chat room where a 14-year-old would have needed to be 18+ to enter? If so, could it not be conceivable that the lonely males figured you must be similarly adult on a fantasy? Has it occurred to you that a pink font is so obvious a stereotype that many men use it for just that purpose, and majority of chat savvy people know it as such an obvious ruse?

He told you such and such, all you had to do was ask him. OK. Chat dialog is all true. Just like your persona.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing this man to justice. But not to Perverted-Justice. See the difference?

If you now make a habit out of posing as underaged girl to get more of the same (webcam or sexy chat), do you see how are doing nothing to help law enforcement and at the same time get personal gain? Has nothing I said so far put even the slightest doubt into your head about PJ contributor's motives? Does it not bother you that PJ has a strict standing internal order for all of it's operatives to NOT contact law enforcement subsequent to a "bust", as you have probably thought of doing in your little experiment?

Quit while you're ahead. Affect real positive change instead and don't become a cyber-criminal yourself - one who deceives, stalks, harasses, and engages in neighborhood graffiti and vandalism.

I'm not saying there are no sickos out there. However, do you think you have uncovered a dangerous sexual predator that goes around raping and murdering babies? A PJ'er would not even make that distinction.

I wonder how many photographs have been posted on that site that actually are not those of the people who posted them?

You know like grabbing an image from a dating service site and then saying that is you.

Imagine that some innocent people have their image on that site and are now called sexual monsters.

Oppsss...

I've had a chance to go through all of these "allegations" about PeeJ on here by this infamous blog spammer PJ Buster, and I've been following this one for quite awhile. I'd like to point out a few things. First of all, I AM a contributor to this site, and I can answer questions on an official capacity.

1.) To the claim that PeeJ doesn't work with law enforcement: This is bull. We've worked with law enforcement agencies across the nation, and in most all cases have provided sufficient evidence for the police to obtain a search warrant. There are currently several prosecutions in progress, and you shall all soon see the result of them. Some of these cases the police have even gotten confessions.

2.) To the claim that we ENJOY this sort of thing: Are you out of your frieken skull? I don't enjoy this anymore than a cop enjoys investigating a murder scene.

3.) The men we bust are "just chatting": What a presumption to make. Do you know all these men personally? What about the men who show up to our group media busts? Obviously they weren't "just chatting" if they show up, not to mention with booze and condoms in hand. If you STILL don't think they have pedophiliac tendencies, read this bust and then come talk to me. http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?profile=Sky%20Monkey
This man wanted to get the girl I was posing as pregnant, and have her run away with him. He also stated he wished he could've had sex with her when she was as young as NINE!

4.) PJ initiates conversation with these individuals: False, and I have screenshots to prove it. The reason Yahoo Archiver cuts off the first line of chat is so that spam-bots don't fill up your archive with the worthless IM's they send you. The chat does not begin it's archive until you respond.

5.) We edit our chat transcripts: Again, this is bull$h1t. I will freely submit my chat archive files to anyone who wants to cross-check them. I even have a piece of software that will allow you to view the contents of the encrypted .dat archive file. There is no way to modify these files without destroying them, unless you are some sort of programming genius.

6.) Police departments condemn PJ: Oh yeah? Then tell me how come they are working with us in more than a handful of ongoing prosecutions.

7.) They "bait" underaged people: All of the files we've posted were of men who claimed to be older than 20 to my knowledge. We also call to verify the identity of the person before we post them. From the information we gather, we do our own investigation to determine exactly who this person is.

I would be happy to answer any and all your questions. Also, feel free to email me at sky_monkey007@yahoo.com if you do not want to address it here.

I meant to post the link to a bust I was using to explain point #3 in my previous post. Here it is: http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=ryansandberg2002

Skymonkey you say the following:

"They "bait" underaged people: All of the files we've posted were of men who claimed to be older than 20 to my knowledge. We also call to verify the identity of the person before we post them. From the information we gather, we do our own investigation to determine exactly who this person is."

Please explain the following:

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=glowy777_withchrist

Taken from this page is the following quote. "This is an anonymous submission from Portland. Well, not really anonymous, I know who this person is. You just don't need to. This is this individuals first submission. The second one this individual did netted me a phone number, which is how I like them. The submitter didn't know that was a must, and this is dirty enough to add. So I'm making a one time exception to the rule due to this wannabe having "with christ" in his IM name. One of these days I'll set the guidelines for submission pieces."

Notice the mention of a one time exception, then notice the following exceptions.

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=camaromarv17846
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=nice_guy95128
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=lonelyone69692003
(above had a wrong number, how long was the wrong number up)
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=Lookn4nowru
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=caffeine_junkie69
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=pil0_48

Sky Monkey you say as follows:

4.) PJ initiates conversation with these individuals: False, and I have screenshots to prove it. The reason Yahoo Archiver cuts off the first line of chat is so that spam-bots don't fill up your archive with the worthless IM's they send you. The chat does not begin it's archive until you respond.

Will you please explain this:

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=felixxx60

- "I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl, I did it mostly on a lark- I expected he'd know right away what was going on"

In response, I'll quote you if you don't mind:

Quote -------------------------------------------
Skymonkey you say the following:

"They "bait" underaged people: All of the files we've posted were of men who claimed to be older than 20 to my knowledge. We also call to verify the identity of the person before we post them. From the information we gather, we do our own investigation to determine exactly who this person is."

Please explain the following:

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=glowy777_withchrist
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bust was done back in 2002, long before I even got there. I would assume back then, the current protocols we use were not in place, and Xavier took this submission from someone he knew personally. You will not see that anymore as only selected contributors listed on the Staff page are allowed to post.

Our verification ramped up full tilt in October as we found people who were willing to help us do it. Previously, whenever possible, the contributors tried to do their own phone verification. Some who can pass off as younger sounding ppl still do, but most of that is handled now via other people.
As PeeJ has aged, it's protocols have been refined in order to effectively, and most importantly, correctly identify these people.

Quote:------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sky Monkey you say as follows:

4.) PJ initiates conversation with these individuals: False, and I have screenshots to prove it. The reason Yahoo Archiver cuts off the first line of chat is so that spam-bots don't fill up your archive with the worthless IM's they send you. The chat does not begin it's archive until you respond.

Will you please explain this:

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=felixxx60

- "I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl, I did it mostly on a lark- I expected he'd know right away what was going on"
---------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently Tattooed Indian Guy knew this guy in person, and that he had an affinity for young girls. Again, this was pre-october of last year, and protocols have changed since then. I'm pretty sure this would be one of the only instances where any of our contributors IM'd anyone first. If there was any occurance of that with the new rules we have set in place, you can be sure that not only would they be stripped of posting rights, but every bust they've ever done could be pulled down. All of that is in the hands of Xavier, our site director.

We are not in the business of going about things wrecklessly, and we work under strict guidelines that would ensure that each bust we do would be able to be held up in court if the police decided to prosecute. As I said earlier, there are more than a handful of the perverts already warming court benches because of what we're doing.

NobodyImportant Said: Open recruitment and lack of rigid guidlines. I support the idea of making the internet a safer place for children but it seems to me many of the people contributing to PJ are just playing out a extension of there video game hijinks. Just waiting to tell the next target how "owned" they were so they can gain face in the group.

Now hold one second there. Open recruitment? Lack of rigid guidelines? I don't know WHERE your getting your information from, but we don't openly recruit anybody. In fact, the recruitment is extremely hard. Even people with apparent good intentions, and ones who've been around the site for years don't get recruited. There are alot of guidelines and traits we look for in potential contributors, not to mention a very thorough background check. Now back to the "lack of guidelines", would you please explain where we lack guidelines. I know that when I go into a chatroom, I'm required to follow a pretty lengthy list of guidelines and restrictions, and it took me almost several months to learn them by heart so I wouldn't have to go over the list every 5 minutes to make sure I was doing everything correctly.

PJ Buster...

You make some good points along with terrible points. Does a person need to rape and murduer a baby to be breaking the law? You can't rely on emotional arguments to spark hatred towards criminals. People busted by PJ are of course not (in most cases) baby rapists and murderers...but they ARE in fact men (mostly) with intentions of satisfying themeselves at the expense of youth. Don't justify their actions just because they aren't murderers...that's just wrong.

BTW: the guy I found was in a yahoo 'teen' chat room. no business being there with intentions of exposing himself.

I realize my actions do not make a difference in this problem and therefore will not make any sort of habit in falsifying myself. There is no statistical proof but there should be some. Maybe it would be too overwhelming for the average person to cope with...

Infamous blog spammer? I'll let the webmaster here judge whether my stuff is spam.

1) The fact remains PJ's "evidence" is not evidence. The police obtain a search warrant due to probable cause. That's quite different. I could work "with" the police just by phoning in a complaint about a neighbor and get the police over there too. I would like to see an official statement to the effect that a police department makes use of PJ's untrained and un-background-checked college kids as their eyes and ears. Then I would like said police department to place their name, logo, and contact information on your PJ site as official supporters. Oh by-the-way, a confession is not a proof of guilt.

2) PJ does enjoy busts. PJ is a fraternity, a camaraderie. Each bust counts towards a buster's ego and boosts standing among peers.

3) Sky Monkey said: "The men we bust are 'just chatting': What a presumption to make. Do you know all these men?"

I read the chat logs. That's what they are. Chats. What presumption do you make that the people are pedophiles instead of role players like your agents apparently are? As for the ones who show up, I can not say whether that proves pedophiliac tendencies. Are they there to take forcible advantage of innocent minors or are they there as an invited guest of a hardened sex crazed teen as portrayed by PJ baiters? PJ continually blurs the two scenarios. Would that same man have shown up if the chat conversation was with a real minor who just wanted to talk about puddy tats and icky spiders and Britney?

4) The PJ credo is they do NOT initiate IM (Instant Message - private one-to-one chat). The evidence of the chat log shows otherwise. Ironically the missing first line contains no more than "hi" even according to agenda-laden PJ entrappers. This missing line technicality is still blamed on a Yahoo bug which has long since been expunged. Why the mechanics of who said "hI' first is an issue at all is a red herring. The real issue is what went on in the public chat room beforehand as far as greetings and invitation to IM continues to be suppressed.

The fact is that the PJ baiter reveals their supposed age well into the conversation. Thus, the wanna be pedo is not knowingly initiating a chat with a minor. There goes PJ's argument that the wanna be pedo is actively & aggressively seeking sex with a minor. The opposite is in fact true. The real prey is the wanna be.

5) If you recall in a private emails with me almost 2 months ago, Jan 10th, I have stated that a DAT file is not viewable using Yahoo Messenger unless I also have the user ID that created it. And I highly doubt you would want to give me your ID and password to log onto Messenger that way. You have mentioned the encryption is a simple method. Anything that can be simply decrypted can be simply encrypted. I have requested this decoder program an you did not respond. The chat-logs/DAT files are improperly created (client side vs. server side) - hence not evidence. The dialog contained therein is sexually leading the wanna be. Those are the real issues.

6) Police, FBI, they've said so in various news reports. If SOME work with you then fine. Define "with". See above point #1.

An attorney for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation: "You've got some fairly sleazy people being looked at by a lot of other sleazy people. It's not a very pretty sight." The foundation focuses on civil liberty issues including privacy and free speech. WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team reporter Barry Simms asks if this brand of justice is doing more harm than good: "Self-appointed cyber cops...", "But in many cases those transcripts are useless as legal evidence. FBI special agent Mike Fennerty explains what role they could play. Fennerty: "The FBI can't endorse a site like this officially".

Sky Monkey said: "Open recruitment? Lack of rigid guidelines? I don't know WHERE your getting your information from, but we don't openly recruit anybody. In fact, the recruitment is extremely hard. Even people with apparent good intentions, and ones who've been around the site for years don't get recruited."

Then how do you explain Jay Alternative's fellow family member 'Harvey' being recruited on the spot? Nepotism? How do you explain AngryGerman AKA Xavier Von Erck, founder and CEO, after long holding the promise he would never do busts himself [citing lack of appropriate temperament, and requiring legal distancing as the webmaster] - he suddenly decides in the glare of cameras to go ahead and do busts anyhow? If there are rigid guidelines and recruitment standards and protocols, they are being redefined on a daily basis.

Sky Monkey said: "There are alot of guidelines and traits we look for in potential contributors, not to mention a very thorough background check."

Would you please publish these guidelines, Would you please explain how psychologically damaged individuals like Tattooed Indian Guy slipped through the cracks of your thorough background checks. Why has he been fired?

Anyone with a forum account at the super patriot forums can be a PJ contributor. I have one, I could run a google search or two find some info on a bust, post it and I am a PJ followup contributor, if thats not open recruitment then I don't know what is.

If those busts do not meet PJ guidelines for posting then why exactly are these busts posted on the PJ website? What does that say for the flexability of the guidelines?

If these which do not meet the guidelines by the admitance of PJ's own contributors can be posted, then I must seriously wonder what they are doing in the attempted busts that could not be posted.

In the three days I browsed the PJ forums I saw multiple posts where seemingly underage people (seemingly because they appeared to lack a high school education in writing manner) bragged about there attempts to carry out what PJ is doing on there own. One incident comes to mind where two 18 year olds bragged about tricking a 19 year old into meeting them, the 19 year old thinking he was going to meet some underage girls instead met the 18 year olds, at what point the 18 year olds verbally and nearly physically abused him. I am sure parents of teenage boys would love for there kids to be doing that, why would'nt they be overjoyed about it. This is a horrible and while you might claim it is not being encouraged by PJ out right, PJ is in no way trying to discourage this dangerous behavior.

The people busted who broke laws need to be prosecuted and rehabilitated(if possible) not humiliated and ostracized. That is justice but instead what PJ is doing in many cases is revenging or even worse extracting sadistic gratification. Sadistic gratification is exactly what many impressionable teenages boys will extract from other people after being encouraged by PJ's fabulous work.

Adam said: "Does a person need to rape and murduer a baby to be breaking the law? ... People busted by PJ are of course not (in most cases) baby rapists and murderers...but they ARE in fact men (mostly) with intentions of satisfying themeselves at the expense of youth. Don't justify their actions just because they aren't murderers...that's just wrong."

You have missed my point. Whenever I talk about baby killers, rapists, murderers, sexual predators, pedophiles, etc, I am using the language PJ routinely classifies ALL "busts" to be. They are the ones who confuse chatters with dangerous career criminals. No matter at which side of the scale they are, they all get treated with the same barrage of potty-mouthed vitriol driven by pure rage. As an aside, note that NONE of the hyped media busts have any criminal history.

You are quite correct that just because the wanna bes aren't murderers that they aren't allegedly doing something wrong. Exactly to what degree they are breaking laws is for courts to decide. Not the rabid PJ mob. Anne labeled me as a pedophile for simply voicing my opinion here. She is case-in-point of the PJ levelheadedness and investigative prowess with which they carry out their good work. It also speaks again to their air-tight hiring screening process.

It's becoming increasingly clear that they favor emotional time-bombs over rational individuals. Preferably ones who have an axe to grind for having been abused in the past. And if recruits can't bring sexual baggage, then a healthy penchant for anti-establishment, anarchistic, and/or computer hacking activities are a definite asset. Applicants must demonstrate lack of secondary school completion to qualify. Their current jobs must have very little to do with assessing the mental health and public threats posed by busted chatters - because hell, that's learned on-the-job.

PJ Buster Said:
"1) The fact remains PJ's "evidence" is not evidence. The police obtain a search warrant due to probable cause. That's quite different. I could work "with" the police just by phoning in a complaint about a neighbor and get the police over there too. I would like to see an official statement to the effect that a police department makes use of PJ's untrained and un-background-checked college kids as their eyes and ears. Then I would like said police department to place their name, logo, and contact information on your PJ site as official supporters. Oh by-the-way, a confession is not a proof of guilt."

Here, again you are wrong. In several of the ongoing court cases going on, the chat transcripts have been used as evidence exhibits. Soon you will see headlines proving this fact. One man we helped prosecute in Nebraska had the chat archive we provided submitted in court and admitted by the judge as evidence.

2) PJ does enjoy busts. PJ is a fraternity, a camaraderie. Each bust counts towards a buster's ego and boosts standing among peers.

This shows me that your even further out of your mind than I previously thought. Personally, I care not for what others think of me. I'm here to do a job which does not include promotion, or real life reputation. Why would I give two shits about who somebody I've never met thinks about me? This is the most rediculous assumption I've heard. The fact is you don't know any of us personally, and you'll try to think of any reason you can to attempt to make us look bad. I wish I knew the reason. I also wonder why your website recruited people from www.danpedo.dk, a known pedophilia message board to help in your "investigative" operation against Perverted-Justice.com.

3) Sky Monkey said: "The men we bust are 'just chatting': What a presumption to make. Do you know all these men?"

I read the chat logs. That's what they are. Chats. What presumption do you make that the people are pedophiles instead of role players like your agents apparently are? As for the ones who show up, I can not say whether that proves pedophiliac tendencies. Are they there to take forcible advantage of innocent minors or are they there as an invited guest of a hardened sex crazed teen as portrayed by PJ baiters? PJ continually blurs the two scenarios. Would that same man have shown up if the chat conversation was with a real minor who just wanted to talk about puddy tats and icky spiders and Britney?

Obviously you are overlooking the fact that the only men that have shown up at the doors of our group media busts were all older men. I didn't see a single minor. If they were "just chatting" then why did they bring alcohol and talk about bringing over condoms? You convieniently look past this because it disproves your point. Congratulations. I see your argument is only selective to the information you chose to believe which does not go against your slant.

4) The PJ credo is they do NOT initiate IM (Instant Message - private one-to-one chat). The evidence of the chat log shows otherwise. Ironically the missing first line contains no more than "hi" even according to agenda-laden PJ entrappers. This missing line technicality is still blamed on a Yahoo bug which has long since been expunged. Why the mechanics of who said "hI' first is an issue at all is a red herring. The real issue is what went on in the public chat room beforehand as far as greetings and invitation to IM continues to be suppressed.

Like I said earlier, the chat archiver does not record the first line of conversation in the .dat file because if it did, your .dat archives would be filled full of porn bot messages and continue to grow in capacity. This was a modification done by Yahoo to circumvent this. However, I've begun keeping screenshots of my busts which show the initiating IM. As for what goes on prior to the PM conversation, it's either nothing at all or just announcing something like 14/f(b)/[state abbr]. When I go into chat rooms, I prefer to not say anything at all, because the last thing I need is to get involved in stupid conversations in public chat which serve no real purpose, thus distracting me from the point at hand.

5) If you recall in a private emails with me almost 2 months ago, Jan 10th, I have stated that a DAT file is not viewable using Yahoo Messenger unless I also have the user ID that created it. And I highly doubt you would want to give me your ID and password to log onto Messenger that way. You have mentioned the encryption is a simple method. Anything that can be simply decrypted can be simply encrypted. I have requested this decoder program an you did not respond. The chat-logs/DAT files are improperly created (client side vs. server side) - hence not evidence. The dialog contained therein is sexually leading the wanna be. Those are the real issues.

Again, as I said earlier, I have helped create a program that allows you to read .dat archive files. I've never seen any email from you requesting this piece of software. If you indeed have, send me a screenshot from your sentbox that you sent it. If you want it, I will sell it to you for $20. I don't code for free. As for the encryption, it uses an XOR algorithm. To your claim that something that can be decrypted can be easily re-encrypted, this is true, but even I cannot modify the original file and re-encrypt it without destroying the file. In court, they would simply compare our .dat files to the ones obtained via search warrant on the offender's system. I will not tell you which files these are, because I know you would just post on your site how to destroy them so that the people we bust can circumvent police evidence. Passing on this information for that purposes could also be seen as obstruction of justice.

6) Police, FBI, they've said so in various news reports. If SOME work with you then fine. Define "with". See above point #1.

They work with us via our Info First Program. If you want to know how it works, read it here: http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?pg=policeinfo - This is how we work with police, and each agreement we make with every agency is exactly the same.

An attorney for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation: "You've got some fairly sleazy people being looked at by a lot of other sleazy people. It's not a very pretty sight." The foundation focuses on civil liberty issues including privacy and free speech. WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team reporter Barry Simms asks if this brand of justice is doing more harm than good: "Self-appointed cyber cops...", "But in many cases those transcripts are useless as legal evidence. FBI special agent Mike Fennerty explains what role they could play. Fennerty: "The FBI can't endorse a site like this officially".

Allow me to quote US Attorney Todd Graves in reference to Perverted-Justice: "The more hooks we have in the water, the more people we get." He also stated to the reporter with KCTV: "While Todd Graves cannot officially endorse Perverted-Justice.com, he welcomes their help." Evidence comes in many forms. It can be a bloody knife. It can be a letter. It can also be an email you send me with incriminating speech. Why not an online chat? It's up to the law, judge and jury to decide what is admissible in court. You see quotes by the FBI that it would not be evidence, but your asking a law enforcement officer, not a lawyer who has years of court experience.

"Then how do you explain Jay Alternative's fellow family member 'Harvey' being recruited on the spot? Nepotism? How do you explain AngryGerman AKA Xavier Von Erck, founder and CEO, after long holding the promise he would never do busts himself [citing lack of appropriate temperament, and requiring legal distancing as the webmaster] - he suddenly decides in the glare of cameras to go ahead and do busts anyhow? If there are rigid guidelines and recruitment standards and protocols, they are being redefined on a daily basis."

ROTFL. You think that everyone that becomes contributors retains their original aliases that they had on the message boards? If you do, your sadly mistaken. Harvey is no one new to the boards, and has been around for a long time. I wouldn't expect you to notice this seeing as you probably can't see the boards due to your multiple bannings due to childish threats. The bust that Xavier did was completely incidental. As you can see, he tried cutting the chat off several times so that a contributor could pick it up the next day, but the perv wouldn't leave him alone. All the contributors at the bust house had left for the night, and even the reporter was beginning to close up shop. When it was apparent this guy wouldn't give up and wanted to meet, the reporter said "bring him in." so he said fine and let the bust finish. Even our own president has made promises that he incidentally had to go back on. The rest of the world is not immune to that either. Are you trying to tell me you've never broken a promise out of necessity?

"Would you please publish these guidelines, Would you please explain how psychologically damaged individuals like Tattooed Indian Guy slipped through the cracks of your thorough background checks. Why has he been fired?"

No, in fact I will not because I know what would happen. You and your small handful of minions would attempt to penetrate and maliciously derail our organization if you knew what they were and mimicked those qualifications. How do psychologically damaged people slip through the cracks? Show me one person who isn't in some way psychologically damaged, and I will show you a doppleganger. TIG wasn't fired. He's decided to move on to other things in his life. Even policeman retire and never arrest again.

I wanted to go over another point in this comment:

PJ Buster said:

I read the chat logs. That's what they are. Chats. What presumption do you make that the people are pedophiles instead of role players like your agents apparently are? As for the ones who show up, I can not say whether that proves pedophiliac tendencies. Are they there to take forcible advantage of innocent minors or are they there as an invited guest of a hardened sex crazed teen as portrayed by PJ baiters? PJ continually blurs the two scenarios. Would that same man have shown up if the chat conversation was with a real minor who just wanted to talk about puddy tats and icky spiders and Britney?"

Ok, let me make sure I'm getting you right. You think that if a girl talks sexually, like many kids do these days, it's ok for these guys to go over and have sex with them. Thanks for clearing that up. Have you ever stopped to realize that having sex with people who are still obviously children and somewhat naive to the world is STILL WRONG and STILL ILLEGAL. The fact is that children are curious and they immitate what they see on tv and hear from their friends. Some of the contributors use persona's of girls who claim to have already had some sort of sexual experience. Some don't. In fact, in my latest bust, ryansandberg2002, the girl was still a virgin but did say that she's made out before. What teenager HASN'T made out? Very few. Kids know what sex is, and they talk about it, they lie about having done it, or in some cases they really have. The responsibility lies upon the adult in this situation to say to himself "talking this way to a person who says they are this young is wrong." What would happen if you came home to find a chat session left on the screen of some guy talking this way and showing real world interest in them. Would let it slide as "just chat." Hell no you wouldn't. Also, do you realize how many kids have been abducted via people they've met on the net. Do you have any clue how many kids are solicted? One in five kids have been over the net. One in ten have actually met the person they were solicited buy. Even fewer cases go unreported. These are well known statistics, as scary as they might be. At PeeJ, we stand by two morals:

1.) It is wrong to want or try to have sex with kids.

2.) It is wrong to talk to, or solicit a child in a sexual manner.

Obviously, you think the above two things, or at least number 2. is ok. Your morals and logic are severely fubar.

No one is gonna disagree with you points sky monkey. I agree totally with the first point that if someone expresses clear intention of meeting a minor with the purpose of having sex then they are clearly doing something wrong.

I also agree with the second point but only on the stipulation that the purpose of sexual talk on the part of the adult be to arouse either her/himself or the child. On this point however I seem to disagree with most PJ contributors who feel if a minor (or someone pretending to be a minor) ever talk to a adult, the adult needs to flee in terror immediatly, which is sadly the course PJ seemingly has plotted out for the internet.

However I wish people would consider the mcarthiyst backlash this type of unprofessional vigilateism will have on impressionable youth.

In point, im not sure enough young males think its cool to pretend to be girls to extract sadistic gratification yet, perhaps you can encourage your contributors to use the word "owned" a few more times, because im not getting enough tells from minor boys pretending to be girls yet.

1) Sky Monkey said: "In several of the ongoing court cases going on, the chat transcripts have been used as evidence exhibits. Soon you will see headlines proving this fact. One man we helped prosecute in Nebraska had the chat archive we provided submitted in court and admitted by the judge as evidence."

So of the 610 busts so far in during the 1-3/4 years PJ has been in service, you are saying "several have been used as evidence exhibits". In one Nebraska case the chat archive was admitted as evidence. Good average.

2) Sky Monkey said: "I also wonder why your website recruited people from www.danpedo.dk, a known pedophilia message board to help in your "investigative" operation against Perverted-Justice.com."

I do not recruit anyone. People can come and post comments on my website guest-book or Yahoo Group or Shrubtography forum or anyplace. It is not known to me whether someone is from www.danpedo.dk (which is defunct). You seem to know their membership better than I.

3) Sky Monkey said: "Obviously you are overlooking the fact that the only men that have shown up at the doors of our group media busts were all older men. I didn't see a single minor."

Obviously you are overlooking the fact that minors can't drive to show up at the house.

4) Sky Monkey said: "Like I said earlier, the chat archiver does not record the first line of conversation in the .dat file because if it did, your .dat archives would be filled full of porn bot messages and continue to grow in capacity."

Spam bots IM me with an initiating message, and when close that window nothing gets saved in the archives. As to normal conversation, I have tested IM'ing someone and he me, and we can take cut-and-paste from the screen, or we can shut down Messenger and re-initialize it, and retrieve the entire chat from the archives no problem.

5) Sky Monkey said: "Again, as I said earlier, I have helped create a program that allows you to read .dat archive files. I've never seen any email from you requesting this piece of software."

Are you saying you did not receive a reply email from me Jan 10/04?

Sky Monkey said: "... I cannot modify the original file and re-encrypt it without destroying the file. In court, they would simply compare our .dat files to the ones obtained via search warrant on the offender's system."

You could create new DAT files at your leisure and send them to me as "evidence". That's all I'm saying. If there are DAT files on the other guy's system which compare to your DAT files, then yeah, that's pretty good evidence I suppose. But you could have emailed him that file too.

6) Sky Monkey said: "They work with us via our Info First Program. If you want to know how it works,..."

Info First is a theoretical concept, a plea to please please take PJ's cop wanna bes word as fact. All this program does is temporarily delay PJ's posting the info on the site (perhaps out of fear that you'd be tainting evidence and biasing a potential jury).

Sky Monkey said: "ROTFL. You think that everyone that becomes contributors retains their original aliases that they had on the message boards? If you do, your sadly mistaken. Harvey is no one new to the boards, and has been around for a long time."

OK, so have a lot of people been around for a long time on the boards. Does not make them qualified. And since we're back to the 100's of aliases PJ plays with, how do we even know there are 20, no, 22, no, 24 contributors?

Sky Monkey said: "I wouldn't expect you to notice this seeing as you probably can't see the boards due to your multiple bannings due to childish threats."

I haven't been banned yet. Keep dreaming.

Sky Monkey said: "No, in fact I will not [ publish guidelines ] because I know what would happen. You and your small handful of minions would attempt to penetrate and maliciously derail our organization if you knew what they were and mimicked those qualifications."

I see. Your stringent guidelines for screening applicants is a secret. Even police hiring criteria, or FBI's are not a secret. You can't mimic one's qualifications... UNLESS your screening process is so easily fooled. That's scary too. So there is no screening process. I made my point.

Sky Monkey said: "How do psychologically damaged people slip through the cracks? Show me one person who isn't in some way psychologically damaged, and I will show you a doppleganger."

I mean psychologically damaged not arbitrarily "in some way", but is an specific area of cognitive reasoning which directly affects motivations and decision making. Why hire someone who has had traumatic sexual abuse, which is causing chronic distress, inability to cope.... a condition that is completely untreated. Would you think it prudent to have psychologically balanced individuals on staff, or people who require counseling themselves?

Sky Monkey said: "TIG wasn't fired. He's decided to move on to other things in his life. Even policeman retire and never arrest again."

That's fine. Not a peep out of 6000 or so lemmings - not a goodbye or anything. Still odd. If someone posts "where is TIG?" will they get banned for stirring up trouble?

PJ Buster- Your clueless. It's been two months since you started your little crusade. Perverted Justice has had a ton of exposure, if they were doing anything illegal why are they still up and running??

joker said: "Perverted Justice has had a ton of exposure, if they were doing anything illegal why are they still up and running??"

I don't know, you tell me? Because the world doesn't work right? There are all sorts of vile porn sites out there, also featured in the news here and there. They exist.

Let me just repeat a part of my post of Feb 18th, point #5 collateral damage PJ is responsible for:
Porn available to under-aged:
The PJ site is not “adult-checked”. Therefore, it exposes under-aged people to lewd, sexually explicit XXX-rated material not befitting a young reader. The very people PJ aims to protect are handed large quantities of pornographic writing that is not readily available anywhere else on the internet. Certainly not in such close proximity to what is ostensibly a child protection service. The PJ site masquerades as a child protective instrument while paradoxically exposing them to harmful material.

-- for that reason alone, PJ should be shut down. Want more? There are eight (8) points listed on my website:

"What other devastation results from PJ’s work?" --

1. Predators become better predators
2. Children at risk
3. Perverts band together
4. More porn for pedos
5. Porn available to under-aged
6. Police & media snubbed
7. People in need of counseling have found a place to hide
8. Promotes criminal behavior

These groups of volunteer organizations have no assets to speak of — they are volunteers after all — and plaintiffs' lawyers are hesitant to take a case without the prospect of a lucrative damages judgment. This describes precisely why PJ has remained in existence without substantive challenge. They operate on a shoe-string though Xavier somehow liberates funds to host it. Lawyers hold their noses when a potential client explains that there is no pot of gold.

PJ takes full advantage of this economic loophole. They ride on a perverted version of Descartes' "I think therefore I am" - namely: "we're here, therefore we must be legal"

Ironically, thanks to the recent rash of media exposure, law enforcement will take a long hard look at PJ and all their so-called evidence.... Already one PJ operative's name is on record - he had to be to pursue his accusation of the charge of pedophilia. PJ'ers sure hate that. Hence their policy of no 1st contact with police or media. Kinda puts a damper on their antics when they're accountable. This time, they are actually having to back up their methods with a flesh-and-blood appearance in court with a verifiable identification for the records. Won't be long now. The legal system either supports PJ or it doesn't. We will see what happens when the AG (Angry German AKA Xavier Von Erck) the coward comes out of hiding. He stated publicly he has "many enemies". And I'm not even one of them as I have nothing personal against him. I'll leave it up to the court of public opinion / lynch mob to decide, just as they decide what's best for "wanna be pedos".

Don't tell me, PJ Buster, let me guess....you're famous on the PJ website? That's the only reason I can think of why you're so against them. This statement in particular floored me:

----------------------
What presumption do you make that the people are pedophiles instead of role players like your agents apparently are?
----------------------

What kind of man would pretend he's a pedophile?!?!?!?!

Dee Jay said: "Don't tell me, PJ Buster, let me guess....you're famous on the PJ website? That's the only reason I can think of why you're so against them."

OK, now you're calling me a pedo too. Nice. Join the ranks of Anne (who by-the-way hasn't been heard from on PJ's forum since her outbursts here). Are you officially representing the view of PJ? If so, please make your accusations with proper supporting evidence and file this with police. I'll see you in court.

Dee Jay said: "This statement in particular floored me: 'What presumption do you make that the people are pedophiles instead of role players like your agents apparently are?' -- What kind of man would pretend he's a pedophile?!?!?!?!"

What I meant was that the presumption PJ makes that a person is a pedophile is a leap. The obvious first assumption should be that the person is a role player. Just like PJ entrappers are role players. Believe it or not, the chat rooms are full of people who pretend to be a different age than they really are. Consenting adults - one or both pretend to be younger (usually). If they pretend this with an age that's considered "minor", that's a sicko in my book. But it's still a mutually agreed fetish between two adults. What kind of man would pretend to be a woman? What kind of man would pretend to be a sheep? What kind of man spends all day pretending to be underaged girl? [ hint: a PJ'er ] You name it, it's out there. It's weird and crazy, but it's a fantasy land. Thoughts aren't illegal. Yet.

Dee Jay said

" Don't tell me, PJ Buster, let me guess....you're famous on the PJ website? That's the only reason I can think of why you're so against them."

Holy cow Dee Jay! The whole world now must bow down at the mere presence of your fiery intellect!

Come on. That allegation has been thrown around so much it's becoming comical. I'm against what PJ does as well. By your logic, I must be featured on their site as well. Law enforcement officials (including several FBI agents) who have come out publicly against PJ must also be on their site.

We're all famous! This line of argument is beyond tedious.

Dee Jay further asks:

"What kind of man would pretend he's a pedophile?!?!?!?!"

Again. These people are NOT pedophiles. Even the lemmings over at PJ publicly admit this by labeling them "wanna be" pedophiles.

Pedophiles do not go after 13, 14, 15 year old girls/boys who are obviously very sexually advanced for their age. Pedophiles, by definition, are only interested in CHILDREN. Get it? Pre pubescent children who are completely innocent in the ways of sex.

13, 14 ,15 year olds who talk and act sexually advanced well beyond their age would hold a real pedophile's interest for less than a second or two.

Why do people role play they are having sex with a 13, 14, 15 year old? Hell if I know. Why do people engage in blood letting during sexual intercourse? I have no freaking idea. It weirds me out just thinking about it. It's sick, anti-social, and dare I say it, perverted behavior. However, until intent can be proven, it remains mere thoughts in their heads.

Are you willing to destroy a man's/woman's life because you don't agree with their thoughts or speech?

What about the men who actually show up to these sites for the express purpose of having sex with a minor? Well, if intent can be proven, they need to be dealt with in a legal manner. They need to be brought to justice...not perverted justice.

But, PJ is even screwing up the intent part. Take, for example, the recent case of the wrestler they just busted. Over and over again they guy said he just wanted to hang out. Even after the "boy" baiter nearly begged him for sex, the wrestler said "I'll come over just to hang out". So, what happens? The wrestler shows up and BAM! BUSTED!

Why did he show up? I have no freaking idea. I can possible INFERE that he might have wanted sex from a 14 year old boy but it I were sitting on a jury, I'd have to acquit the man. No real law enforcement agency would have had a guy show up just to "hang out". They would have solid proof of intent before the invitation was extended.

Now, in the end, what do you have? Sloppy procedures, tainted evidence, a phone conversation reconstructed from memory, no intent proven and one ruined life. Congratulations PJ...job well done.

-Decipher

I find it funny that you people think you have the right to decide what is "moral" and what isn't. You have absolutely no right to judge another human being in a manner that will lead to ruining their lives. Until they commit the crime, they are innocent, and you have no idea whether or not the person is fucking around or not. An older man/woman who tricks a young girl/boy and in a nonconsensual manner, has sex with them (nonconsensual being lack of maturity or lack of agreement in action), or ruins their life, yes that is fucked up and the perpetrators should be punished, because society is founded on laws to protect people.

but no one has the right to set morals. Honestly, there is no argument to this. It is absurd to think that one person can actually SAY what is right and what is wrong, then condemn people for being different (because we praise diversity as long as it doesn't gross us out). I mean, just think about it. If our society was pro-child sex and it was not considered a taboo, people would be lessed grossed out by it. The laws are there to protect people from abuse, not impose values. Fucking tools.

I am against pedophilia. But I don't see how driving someone insane by screwing with their life is gonna help to make them a better citizen. We are here to help each other, not destroy each other. If you know a wannabe pedophile maybe you could reach out to them to show them that there is a better way. I now this sounds hopelessly naive but I do have hope for those who are not an imminent danger to others. I DO believe in the registration policy for sexual offenders. I guess this is supposed to be the same kind of thing but in a pre-emptive sort of way. That I cannot condone, as it spits in the eye of our way of life. Guilty without a trial, Hiding behind an excuse like: these guys deserve it for being perverts, I don't think that helps the problem. Use this thing you have created to find those lost souls that are so low on self-esteem that they can't find comfort in a partner who is of a parity with them. Show them a better way, if you can. We don't prey on the young, though we do use their sexuality {example b. spears} to entice all ages with their vibrance and beauty. Almost all advertising equates youth with desirability so lonely people with only a television and no life can be brainwashed into thinking that wanting youth is ok. "I don't wanna be old" maybe they just can't realize that it is a part of life to grow older, you ain't in high school anymore, and lusting after the homecoming queen just ain't gonna make it. Well anyway, I think goading middle aged loners into madness might not be the best thing for the rest of us out here to have to deal with. I realize that there are wrong-headed people out there, this won't discourage them from fantasizing about doing things. Shaming them, I mean. Reaching out to them probably wouldn't make a difference to the true deviants out there, who are prowling chat rooms and really making dates to rape and kill. Let the cops, who are accountable to me and you lay traps for them. Let them nail them, give em leads if you need to help, but remember we are a nation of checks and balances. Not a nation of thugs and bullies. If they have a bunch of kiddie porn, turn em in. If they are lonely jack-offs, well, there ya go.

sorry about the lack of paragraphs,,, new at this

Well said thetazman, And despite what I've been accused of being here, by PJ supporters, using their crack investigative skills they are so famous for, I am in no way pro or supportive of real pedophiles. This is the part they don't get. Their blind rage is so pervasive and their cult indoctrination so complete they can't see daylight.

Of course there need to be checks and balances. The 20's something mob ain't got none. They hide under anonymity and let their followers do the dirty work and get caught if need be. The inner-circle contributors continue to live out their fantasies of playing underaged kids... and all in the name of saving the world from big bad predators they themselves helped create.

Mr. Bowling?

Apparently there was a CNN interview with X-boy "PeeJ on Paula Zahn". Phoebus Apollo, PJ site engineer:
---------------------------
I saw the segment and am decidedly pissed off. "Vigilante?" "Entrapment?" Are they "perverting justice"? The narrowness of the interview, the segway into the interview, the teaser, all the way down to the final banner they threw up was all decidedly negative trying to slant the story.

The recognition of the Newtown Square idiots will simply empower them. All in all, Xavier handled his interview well, but frankly the entire segment was decidedly a setup obviously to portray one slant. The interview was kept short and cut off with the Professor saying "vigilante" over and over again. Xavier was absolutely right - he knows nothing about our organization if he's making those claims.

Xavier did well with what was a bad situation. I'm getting that professor's contact information so we can tell him our opinion. Your thoughts?
---------------------------

A call for harassment? Threats? Just like they did to Brian Grave's lawyer.

I just wanted to let y'all know that this is now the most active page at the Stink Zone.

I just heard about this site after I saw it on CNN and I found this board after searching for info. a few things struck me as interesting:

-The PJ people set up false ID's and go into chat room. then they claim everything said by anyone else is 100% true.

-The "evidence" they post (in the chat logs) have clearly been tampered with. there are all kinds of childish comments and edits. This would never be accepted as "evidence." They apparently also depend on single individuals to collect the chat logs and pictures (which, again, PJ accepts as 100% real). The so-called chat logs also often contain a series of allegations. Often these claims are not substantiated by the information provided and are often simply ridiculous.

-There was recently a furor in the Philly area when the local news attracted people on the net to residential community. I am not sure if it the same as the PJ discussions but there is no mention of the uproar that was caused. last I heard the local police was going to bill the station for the overtime that was generated after they pulled the stunt.

-PJ is posting phone numbers which they claim is "verified." They give some kind of cryptic acronym when they discuss the "verification" of the numbers. PJ then posts the so-called "disclaimer" where they claim to simply be informing the Internet community. What possible reason would there be to "inform" people of these numbers other than to get people to harass them? PJ has posted messages where people have indicated they are receiving harassing calls and death threats after the numbers were posted. I believe the only reason PJ is posting these numbers is get other to harass them. Further, the "verification" system, if there is one, only would verify that a person is on the other end of a phone at some specific time. Who knows who actually ows the phone or where it goes.

-I noticed the domain registration data for the domains referenced has false and incomplete data in it. I understand a complaint has been filed at www.internic.net

Welcome aboard, jimmy. You've happened on the most informative & busy blog out there - and I'm sure Eric, its webmaster thanks you as well. In your couple of days of knowing about PJ you have raised some serious questions. Pro-PJ'ers have posted here and you can decide if they have adequately addressed any of your concerns, or indeed, have remained rational long enough before stooping to name calling. There are several websites attempting to shed light on the PJ clan. Also I strongly urge you to register a user ID on PJ's site and read their followup forums & reaction forums that pertain to the chat logs. This is where the real damage is done by hundreds of anonymous, un-adult-checked wanna be PJ clones. You'd never hear a PJ'er recommend you view opposing sites because they are afraid of people who can think and decide for themselves.

Jimmy said: "last I heard the local police was going to bill the station for the overtime that was generated after they pulled the stunt."

Last I heard, the town's folk were so upset that their neighborhood was set-up for this "bust" which lured pedos to their neighborhood. Although I believe these residents don't get it (they were no proven pedos), there is a civil suit being considered against the television station. There are plenty of links to news articles quoting outraged citizens, apologetic media, and comments from police and FBI concerning the PJ fiasco.

The rented house used in this circus was in close proximity to a school so parents were concerned that pedos would be stumbling around the streets drooling and grabbing anything that moved. What they failed to realize was that the wanna be pedos were lured there by a specific individual, over-sexed teen making mutually agreed arrangements to meet at a specific location. These men were not there to troll for innocent kids.

Also, it is interesting to note that in a previous group bust, PJ was whining that they did not receive due credit for their work. This time, I don't see PJ stepping up and taking the heat either. The recent CNN interview was less than favorable and their forum immediately buzzed about contacting the professor who used the term "vigilante" (see the quote from their forum I posted Mar 9th 11:21PM above) I wonder if that professor was seeking input, or if this is unsolicited input that the 100s of PJ lemmings would be volunteering out of the goodness of their hearts.

In a recent high-profile "bust" it took 2 days of goading, and the concerted effort of 5 PJ agents to bring down one wrestling personality. The alleged telephone verification made has no backing whatsoever except the say-so from memory of the youngish boy sounding person. The only FACT we can see from the chat logs, when stripped of their vitriol additions, is the target repeatedly saying he did not want to come over for sex.

Oh and one more thing. One of the major on-hand advisors to the PJ baiter in that scam was none other than AG (Angry German AKA Xavier Von Erck, founder and CEO of PJ) who had vowed to never do busts nor get involved in busts himself. That vow was recently broken, again, as well when the glare of cameras were on him. In the wrestling personality case, the baiter Jay Alternative required tidbits of information pertaining to the sport of wrestling to make the target more at ease. AG's vast knowledge in this area proved useful. There goes his precious "arms-length" defense. Remember this when it comes time to hold the PJ empire criminally responsible and who runs it.

Like many others, I wasn't aware of the existence of PJ until they allegedly nailed Rob Feinstein. And at first, I felt like almost everyone else-What a louse and scumbag. With the transcripts provided, it sure looks bad for Rob.
But as I was reading this salacious material, I noticed small, yet telling, things. For one thing, in every single case of theirs I've read, these are not good-hearted people reluctantly wading into a dirty situation because the police are either unwilling or unable to make a dent in the problem. Nowhere do we see acknowledgement of the pain and harm caused by this issue-especially the long-term mental effects. INdeed, there is such a strong streak of hateful glee and joy (a camaraderie fostered and bolstered by like minded types-Sky Monkey, Anne, T.I.G. etc. You know Sky Monkey-A fraternity) that it seems they share that same mindset that all bullies and abusers share-The Sheer (maybe sexual) thrill of having power over a whimpering and beaten foe. This type of mindset finds joy in the pain of others, while at the same time denying the evil effects of said mindset. I see no difference between the mindsets of either a child molester or the anonymous, unscreened DIY'ers at the PJ site.
Notice too, that in Rob's case, the graphic, sexual dialogue came from the PJ hack. This also shows up in all the transcripts.
Which brings up another problem-the chat transcripts. Have any been independently audited and verified (say by the FBI?) Schadenfreude here-For you PJ hacks-If you DON'T have anything illegal or unethical going on, then why not publish your "rigorous" standards & guidelines, in addition to actually letting local cops know when your site wants to set up media busts (Sorry about the "what-have-you-got- to-hide? card, but I've always wanted to throw that at someone for a long time)
What happens if your mark arrives at the bust, has a bad attitude & a gun? Or in addition to being pure as the driven snow, is everyone at your site psychic as well, and that's why you don't plan ahead-you can see no problems on the horizon (Hint to PJ-Remember Miss Cleo and Linda Georgian-psychic friend? Their attempts at legitimacy also crashed and burned)
So, how can PJ clean up their act-one simple way-Post every word of every conversation between the mark and the "wanna-be", from the 1st meeting to the bust. BTW skymonkey-you do yourself AND your group no favors when discussing Xavier's foray into online recruiting.
"Xavier's bust was completely incidental. As you can see, he tried cutting off the chat several times so that a contributor could pick it up the next day. The perv wouldn't leave him alone." So, how is this "perv's" nagging and wheedling ANY different from the harangues by the PJ crew?
Just three more points. !. Sky monkey-in between your 1st and 2nd paragraph above, you stated that a log-chat was entered into evidence in a Nebraska man's trial-I notice three words missing from this take, and that must be because there was NO GUILTY VERDICT. PJ'ers-Don't think that just because it's run on a shoestring budget that your website is immune from legal challenges based on the actions of your posters. An Oregon skinhead group tried this stunt after Tom Metzger and his website were sued by the mother of a black murder victim. TM thought he could poormouth his group's website and use the 1st amendment as a legal shield. TM and his crew lost their building to this woman. Also keep in mind, that entrapment may apply here-In a case in Nebraska, a child-porn conviction was overturned (9-0) as it showed the postal service kept sending this guy child porn and badgered him to the point that 2 years later, he finally ordered 1-2 mags. He was arrested and publicly outed. However, 2 things happened-the town stuck up for him and it was also found that He had none of the child porn sent by the govt.
Lastly, this is SO MUCH LIKE the hysteria that swept the country in the late'80's and early'90's that alleged children were raped and tortured by intergenerational satanic cults that ran day-care centers. These convictions are ALL being overturned, especially when you realize that, if these children weren't abused by the defendants, then they sure as hell were by the prosecutors and social workers. Here in El Paso, we had the very 1st case in the nation, two workers from a ywca center One was convicted (By an ambitious assistant DA), the other acquitted as the jury saw firsthand how these child interrogations were abusive and leading. The only conviction in the case was overturned not long afterwards.
For all the PJ hackers and wanna-be's, let's see each and every one of you PJ posters undergo a very-public background check by your worst enemies, or at least PROVE your folks are psychologically screened and that these suppoesd guidelines really do exist. Oh, that's right-that's good when it happens to others, but bad when you're held to the same standard that you find so lacking in others. You all might want to make sure that someone's not trolling for you all, as some of your bulbs aren't the brightest in the chandelier.
Thank you for letting me vent. As someone who was molested repeatedly as a 6 yr. old, and have family in law enforcement (secret service agent, detective) I despise these wanna-be cops, They don't give a damn who they hurt. When someone dies as a result of one of these stings, the fault will lie completely on the PJ website. You all are slimy, unbalanced bullies who play dress up in yoursuperhero-towel capes, getting a sexual thrill out of an obvious sadistic soul and mindset. It's obvious that these people think they never make a mistake. Actually, that's what this site is-a hateful hurt on anybody in their crosshairs.PJ claims to want to protect kids-how are you protecting children when you harass and stalk their parents, indeed, aren't you showing the same enjoyment of pain-infliction as the very people you decry.
Please PJ postersdo the world a favor and make sure none of you breeds,as the gene pool is shallow enough already
btw
what's the difference between Xavier, L. Ron Hubbard (ultra-paranoid) and Jim Jones? I sure don't see any.

It is thrilling to see such intelligent analysis of this hot-button issue (ignoring the same old sadness from the pj'ers).
Look forward to joining PJBuster and Chris in this fight--it's time to shine a light in this dark little corner...

I am a real activist who for quite a few years has provided information to law enforcement agencies around the country (USA)when I have seen inappropriate things going on. When I first started, I immediately let the FBI know what I was doing, and asked for advice in helping to properly follow the laws which will allow for prosecution.
So I have experience, and I am against child exploitation, child abuse and those who prey upon children. I am also not happy with Perverted Justice. If I had to profile them, I would say that they are trying to fill their own egos, and thrive on people apologiziing and begging them for forgiveness. They have a twisted sense of what is appropriate and not appropriate when it comes to chatting. I have seen several instances where the conversation with the "perps" starts to mellow out, so they will make statements such as "I like sex" or "will we have sex?" in an attempt to convince the "perp" to feed into it.
If you do google.com news searches for "Perverted Justice" you will see how many law enforcement agencies are not thrilled with what they are doing. I wonder why they do not put links to these sort of articles on their "media" links. I find it funny how they will list things to boost their egos, but do not put the "whole story".
Further, here are two links that I implore you all to read:
http://www.freep.com/money/tech/npred12_20040212.htm
http://www.chatmag.com/help/pj.html
These two links will help put "the rest of the story" out there.
I will just sign this as someone who is really concerned about what their real motives are and how much damage they are doing to REAL investigations.

In some ways i'd agree with perverted-justice.com on how they ''bust'' perverts who are trying to 'get with' underage girls. The guys shouldnt be going after underage girls. BUT the way they lure them to their houses is ridiculous..... Even tho the guy may be a pedo and shouldnt be going to any girl's house who's only 13 or 14... the guys. girls.... whatever working at p.j. shouldnt BEG the guys to come to their ''bust'' house. Sounds to me like they are just desperate to put more names on their webpage. At first i thought it was a good sight.. I thought they were doing some good..... but after awhile and some articles i don agree with them anymore. one of the conversations they had. the guy kept saying no he wasnt going to come over and the ''girl'' kept asking over and over again. and kept asking if they were going to have sex.... Usually its the guys from p.j. who are initiating the sex talk. Some of the convos its not..... but some of em it is. and thats not fair.... Too many guys in this world are only ON the internet to start with because they are looking for sex..... And if a girl is going to jump to the chance of having sex with them. they're not going to say no...so i dont think that they should start out by asking the guy if they are gong to have sex if he comes over...... especially if the guy just said to hang out.. or drink beer. I actually met one of the people that was busted on that sight and im glad he was exposed because he was a sick man who thought he needed young girls to do things for him.... Some of the guys ARE pedos... but some of them dont seem like pedofiles to me... They just seem like an ordinary person who was offered sex and was going to take it.. In some cases the p.j. busterss didnt tell them how old they were till after they had the guy all ''worked up''.. and wanting to come over... Now that just aint right. The should tell them right away how ''old'' they are. If they're anything like me.. they arent going to browse the profiles to find someone to talk to... i dont look at profiles... or pics when i chat. but nor am i looking for any sort of relationship... No chat rooms should not be used to hook up with underage girls..... but chat rooms should not be used to LURE guys into thinking that they are meeting a young girl who is very sexually active.. In some cases.. i do consider p.j. entrapment. but others i dont... Either way i just gave up on the sight... Its disgusting.... No 13 yr old girl should know about any of the stuff they talk about... I could understand if the ''girl'' didnt talk about sex at all and the guy kept asking about it.... but its usually p.j. that brings up the sex issue.... so i dont think thats right....... And now im just babbling and not really saying anything intelligent so im gonna shush now... im sure i wont have any good replys to this anyways.. But my personal opinion (which EVERYONE is etitles to) is that.....p.j. is a crock.... and shouldnt be operating.. I know there is law enforcement that does work on this...... just leave it to them. they will handle it... legally.. i know that in the schools around here.. they have the internet and the police liason officer monitors the rooms and if any person reports to them that there is bad behavior going on.... they handle it. its been handled.... its happened.... it will always happen no matter what anyone tries to do.. The way to handle it tho.. is to stop it before it gets too far. and luring someone to a 'bust house' is going too far..... Thats all :)

Oh yeah forgot something.......... Isnt it usually the pedofiles who go to the kiddie porn sights to look at kiddie porn??????? then how come the people who work for p.j. are going to kiddie porn sights to use the pictures...... seems to me like p.j. should stay off those sights too. :) otherwise wont they be considered pedofiles too for using that sight to promote kiddie porn in the chat rooms???

Just Me brought up a good point that I did not even consider until reading his post; The people at PJ mention in their chats about showing pictures and direct the "perps" to view their profile to see the picture (if memory serves me right, I have seen that on numerous chat sessions they had posted). That means, in order to portay themselves as underage boys and girls, they are using a picture of an actual minor (or someone who looks like a minor) for their profiles. In which case, they are exploiting the minor in which they are using that picture. I did not see the pictures they use on their profiles, so I can not say if the pictures are inappropriate or not, however, they do show some sort of picture to the "perps", so where did the pictures they use come from? (Not asking sarcastically, seriously want to know-- is it a picture of a relative of theirs?
I too thought PJ was a great site the first time I heard of it (someone posted the info in an abuse recovery forum, spamming it in an attempt to harass the person they were posting about). I thought "these people really seem to want to catch these perps. However, it seems that it is more to humilate, shame, and gain control over people.
And I have read that they "will cooperate" with law enforcement- that is not exactly accurate according to news articles I read through google.com news searches. On the news article:
http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw94158_20040309.htm
It was written:
"In the wake of the broadcast, the Oakland County Sheriff's Department is executing 12 search warrants on men featured in the show. But Sheriff Michael Bouchard says they "haven't received 100 percent cooperation from Perverted Justice." "
So I wonder why they claim to cooperate with authorities when they do not always. ("Haven't recieved 100 percent cooperation" is the nice way of saying "they are not being too cooperative". Further reading up on them indicates that they may have some "perps" getting arrested, however due to the tactics, it does not mean they will get a conviction.
And as a survivor of abuse myself, I understand what they are doing, but do not agree with the tactics.

I've said a lot on this blog, but I guess news articles speak louder. Here's another one PJ doesn't want you to know about:

The Pitch - Kansas City Strip
Tony Ortega: Channel 5 only snared pedophiles in its Internet perv sting, right? Mar 11/04
http://www.pitch.com/issues/current/strip.html/1/index.html

excerpts:
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"This is more of a lonely guy than anything else," says Detective James McLaughlin, a nationally known cybercrimes expert who agreed to look at Doe's chat transcript.

McLaughlin was profiled recently in Rolling Stone because he's so good at tracking down and arresting dangerous Internet predators. Such men, McLaughlin says, are likely to describe sexual acts in explicit detail, and they tend to e-mail child pornography. When McLaughlin busts them, he usually finds copious amounts of damning material stored on their computer hard drives.

Of Doe's transcript, he says, "I wouldn't even issue a subpoena for subsequent information, let alone make an arrest. His statements don't have the specificity that I'd be comfortable with. And he even makes some references to not wanting to have sex. That's a death knell for an investigation."
----------
"Reputable group? Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. But I have to very much disagree with him," says Julie Posey, a Wichita mother who operates Pedowatch.com and has helped law enforcement agencies make more than sixty arrests of Internet-surfing pedophiles. She draws a sharp distinction between her methods and those of the vigilantes at Perverted-justice.com.

"How could they be reputable? They're into voyeurism and stalking, at best. How do we even know who these people are? Not one of them is willing to give his real name. I've got my name all over the Internet. I don't have to hide."

Posey says she wouldn't make a keystroke without cooperation from law enforcement. "You have to follow the law. You have to prove [a suspect's] intent. And you don't go publicizing the evidence everywhere. You need training in what the law is."

But the volunteers at Perverted-justice.com, she says, cut corners. "It all sounds so easy. You just start talking dirty in a chat room. But some of these conversations I'm seeing on Perverted-justice.com are very leading. You can't do that -- you have to let [the suspect] arrange everything."

Posey says she doubts Channel 5 really considered whether Perverted-justice.com was legitimate. "Were they there to truly protect children, or were they just there to get ratings?"

Detective McLaughlin says Perverted-justice.com's tactics trouble him. "They haven't been around long enough to be reputable. I had just given an interview to a Boston paper saying that Perverted-justice.com is a lawsuit waiting to happen when you contacted me," he says.
----------
Before Channel 5's series ran, another man caught in the sting attempted to halt the broadcasts by filing for a temporary restraining order in Missouri Western District federal court. That attempt failed to keep the series from airing, but the lawsuit is still pending. Next week, [attorney] Rittmaster says, she'll file John Doe's lawsuit by joining the earlier, pending court case.

"Our biggest challenge is keeping the case focused on the law, convincing people that a person who's truly without malevolent intent could get swept up in something like this," she says.

Real activist said: "...That means, in order to portray themselves as underage boys and girls, they are using a picture of an actual minor (or someone who looks like a minor) for their profiles. In which case, they are exploiting the minor in which they are using that picture."

In the case of the high profile Rob Feinstein "bust", mention was made of a picture obtained from a UK site. I wonder if the parents or legal guardians of that particular minor signed release forms to agree to use the likeness of their child in a legitimate sting operation? I doubt that because PJ's are not legitimate. Besides Rob mentioned the picture appeared to portray a person older than was depicted in the chat. A lot of things don't add up. But we'll never know as thinking, impartial observers, because PJ sees to it to delete such links to pictures.

God has no place at PJ    

Shouldn't an RoR (Right of Reply) be where the target can express in his own words his remorse and regret? It seems PJ contributors dictate the content here too, just as they've orchestrated the chat, peppered it with contaminating editorial commentary, steered the followup forum's lemmings by "helping out". You would think that the last official statement a target makes be made uninhibited, showing contrition as he sees fit. If that individual is religious and finds solace in his faith, so be it. However, in this example, the RoR content is heavily pre-censored:

sarahsmiles_1990 (9:44:39 AM): how sorry?
shou5775 (9:45:01 AM): NEVER DO IT AGAIN
sarahsmiles_1990 (9:45:03 AM): are you sorry you got caught or sorry you tried to fuck a child?
shou5775 (9:45:29 AM): SORRY i TRIED TO FUCK A CHILD
sarahsmiles_1990 (9:45:39 AM): excellent answer
sarahsmiles_1990 (9:46:31 AM): tell ya what, Pacha...write a letter to the admin called a "right of reply"
sarahsmiles_1990 (9:47:14 AM): in it, explain yourself and snivel and stuff and tell him how truely fucked up you arer and how you are going to seek help
shou5775 (9:47:40 AM): OK
sarahsmiles_1990 (9:48:43 AM): do NOT use "GOD" or any other deity in your reply. This is a secular site and playing the religion card pisses us right the fuck off..you get me, soldier?
shou5775 (9:49:48 AM): YES

----------
Perverted-Justice.com links to http://www.superpatriot.net/
"Fighting religious zeal and racist pride."
"Dedicated to libertarian priciples."
"This is a secular site."

I've been posting to the PJ message boards for just over a week now and here are some of my observations:
*Basically, the goal of PJ seems to be the exposure of pontential or 'wannabe' criminals.
(Keep in mind, there are no actual children involved in the 'busts'. However, the intent of the individuals in question seems to be quite clearly that of 'hooking up' with a minor.)
*The word *harass* or any variation is indeed censored.
*There does seem to be very low tolerance of disagreement with the host's views and opinions. However, the site is privately owned. Whether to publish any messages for view on the PJ board is entirely up to the discretion of the owner. In essence, if you don't like what you read, then don't visit the site.
*It would be difficult to misinterpret the online conversations posted on PJ between the 'pervs' and the volunteers as anything other than overtly sexual. However, whether the volunteers initiate conversation or not, in my opinion, the unacceptable behavior is that of the adult who requests an offline encounter for the purpose of having sex with a minor.
*I've never read a conversation in which the solicitor requested anything other than an offline encounter for the purpose of having sex with a minor, not an adult posing as a minor. There is no mistaking the intent of the solicitor. (However, since clearly the volunteers are not children but only masquerading as children, this does present a cause for concern regarding predators who may adopt the same practices to gain the confidence of potential victims. Anonymity online creates the potential for misrepresentation for not only those who may be acting for a truly noble cause, but for others less honorable as well.)
*Now, as far as my support for PJ is concerned, I do support their efforts. So far, I've not seen any evidence that any people are targeted for exposure other than predators intent on pursuing an offline encounter for the purpose of sex with a minor. What's wrong with that?

KittenKaboodle said: "I've been posting to the PJ message boards for just over a week now ..."
Are you doing followup help? I.e. phoning/emailing all neighbors, workplaces, schools, etc, of a "bust"? Passing on libelous accusations where there was not an ounce of legally recognized proof? Interstate telephone threats (federal offense), or accessing non-public databases (breach of confidentiality)? Making personal threats against members of United States military personnel which is an act of terrorism? If so, you're going down like the rest of them.

KittenKaboodle said: *Basically, the goal of PJ seems to be the exposure of pontential or 'wannabe' criminals. (Keep in mind, there are no actual children involved in the 'busts'. However, the intent of the individuals in question seems to be quite clearly that of 'hooking up' with a minor.)"
Being a wannabe criminal is not a crime. There is no proof of intent. The scenarios concocted are fantastical environments "too good to be true" that ensnare dumb, bored individuals who in no way exhibit characteristics of a real clinically diagnosed pedophile as defined by Reference; Diagnostic And Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, American Psychiatric Association, 1994, and many others.

KittenKaboodle said: *The word *harass* or any variation is indeed censored."
The word is, but its spirit is clearly fostered by the PJ site.

KittenKaboodle said: *There does seem to be very low tolerance of disagreement with the host's views and opinions. However, the site is privately owned...."
That's fine. But PJ heralds itself as being "the court of public opinion". If its founder Angry German AKA Xavier Von Erck is not open to opinions on his forum, reacting with consequent retaliation of the form of electronic barring or user ID cancellation, then the site is more one-person's world and not representative of the public at large, isn't it.

KittenKaboodle said: *It would be difficult to misinterpret the online conversations posted on PJ between the 'pervs' and the volunteers as anything other than overtly sexual."
Yes. The reason it's difficult is because the original chat log is peppered with incendiary comments by the oh-so impartial baiter. Not to mention the entire conversation is lead by the PJ baiter. There is no room for most readers to see through that slanted presentation.

KittenKaboodle said: *I've never read a conversation in which the solicitor requested anything other than an offline encounter for the purpose of having sex with a minor, not an adult posing as a minor.
Maybe you should read more. The high profile Rob Feinstein case for example. He numerously insisted he did not seek sex. Ultimately he was persuaded / goaded / begged and pleaded by the baiter to show up. By-the-way it took 5 PJ contributors over two days. The second day's chat was initiated by a PJ baiter with a smiley icon. In the end Rob agreed to come over just to hang out. Now PJ is attempting to ruin any of Rob's companies he was associated with, making appeals to rally & boycott etc. These actions do nothing to protect children. This is PJ self-promotion or political strategy for whatever gains that Angry German hopes to achieve as he is huge wrestling fan and has a vested interest in this topic. AG vows to destroy Ring of Honor, Inc. and R.F. Video, Inc. as well as financially affect all employees of those companies. Rob is wrestling promoter and is part owner of the DVD franchise which he founded.

KittenKaboodle said: "So far, I've not seen any evidence that any people are targeted for exposure other than predators intent on pursuing an offline encounter for the purpose of sex with a minor. What's wrong with that?"
Perhaps you would care to explain the exposure & targeting of companies or schools that employ said "predator". Hundreds of emails are sent to coworkers and bosses. Either because the company is one where the "predator" is BELIEVED to work during PJ's crack investigative phase (stabbing in the dark), or subsequent to positive identification. These companies are labeled "pedophile enablers" and in some cases risk retaliation via boycott or direct employee harassment and vandalism from PJ's followers. These companies, whether correctly identified or not, are never removed from the PJ's forums. In many cases the companies are not aware what is happening. Until people like myself and colleagues alert their CEOs and explain why they've become targets for 100's of phone calls and faxes. Needless to say they are not impressed with having their names dragged through the mud with unfounded accusations. When we're lucky, followup thread gets removed. POOF. Small victories.

I will tell you what I think is wrong with that. The PJ website encourages dangerous social deviance while doing nearly nothing to show why statutory rape of 14 year olds is bad for society. The forums clearly encourage online and offline harrasment and the fact that the forums are called "patriot" is a spit in the face of all Americans who believe in civil rights and due process.

The website mostly features people who are not pedophiles even though they are infact mostly potential statutory rapists and sex offenders.

PJ contributors sometimes initiate contact online, they have specifically targeted indiviuals they have known in person, they often beg there targets to meet for offline contact, and they many times initiate sexual conversation.
(Claim otherwise but I warn you that there is proof on PJ's own website which I will link for the 3rd time if nessecary.)

This is a website for all people with sadistic tendancies who want to harass the weak willed and yes I feel that many of the people busted on the site are mentally challenged.

If you get sadistic pleasure out of harassing retards then clearly PJ is the site for you. If you think PJ is going to clean up yahoo chat so your children can use it you are totally mistaken. Many countries where it is perfectly ok to solicit 14 year olds for sex have access to yahoo.

If you want to clean up yahoo petition the company, if you want to prevent child molestation become a member of law enforcement, if you want to help victims of child abuse become a counseler. If however harassing retards and the weak willed is what you want to do for your own personal satisfaction then PJ is the site for you.

Okay.
I've read the responses and I understand the concern. But I've not read of any 'busts' that didn't include the solicitation of an offline sexual encounter with a minor.
If there are records of PJ volunteers engaging in illegal activity, I haven't read them.
I'd hate to think I've been scammed. Like I posted earlier, the internet allows for misrepresentation...and people misrepresent themselves for a variety of reasons.
It is quite possible there are some people who may present themselves as PJ volunteers who may not have the most noble of intentions. There just may be good reason to be concerned about adults posing as children for the purpose of obtaining some kind of perverse sexual gratification by stalking, baiting, or harassing other adults. But it can't be denied that alot of predators use the internet as a tool to arrange offline sexual encounters with minors.
If law enforcement were better skilled at tracking and prosecuting online offenders there wouldn't be a need for groups like PJ. Sadly, however, there's not alot one can do about online offenders. So, even if PJ volunteers do break the law with their online activities, who will pursue their prosecution?

KittenKaboodle said: "But I've not read of any 'busts' that didn't include the solicitation of an offline sexual encounter with a minor."
I just furnished you one example above.

KittenKaboodle said: "I'd hate to think I've been scammed."
I truly believe PJ's followers who go by what PJ contributors post on perverted-justice.com ARE scammed. Their/your emotional outrage against pedophiles is counted on to block your seeing the bigger picture. PJ contributors do not possess the necessary training to diagnose sexual predatory tendencies from a 1/2 hour chat. But PJ portrays all chats as proof positive that there are such threats to innocent, random kids. Worst case, perhaps a case of statutory rape can be made as pointed out by 'nobodyImportant' (that's what the legal definition is called when a minor is involved - the word "rape" is in no way forcible as is colloquially used if the term stood alone), Definition of minor & age of consent varies from state to state. PJ interchangeably uses legal definition re. age, moral views, and just plain personal opinion to ascertain when they have caught a "pedophile". Note however none of this incorporates any legal evidence.

KittenKaboodle said: "It is quite possible there are some people who may present themselves as PJ volunteers who may not have the most noble of intentions."
That's also possible. But the problem is closer to home. I would say PJ contributors themselves do not have the most noble of intentions.

KittenKaboodle said: "But it can't be denied that alot of predators use the internet as a tool to arrange offline sexual encounters with minors"
Cite links to back up your claim. I can furnish studies where the most likely stalkers are relatives or close friends known to the victim or victim's family. Not total strangers "met" (electronically met) on the internet.

KittenKaboodle said: "If law enforcement were better skilled at tracking and prosecuting online offenders there wouldn't be a need for groups like PJ."
I wonder how PJ is skilled more so than cyber-crime branches of law enforcement. PJ'ers have no training whatsoever. There is no such thing as an online sexual predator offender. On what grounds would such be prosecuted? An example of an online crime I see being committed is by PJ baiters: that of trafficking pictures of minors which they find on sites.

KittenKaboodle said: "So, even if PJ volunteers do break the law with their online activities, who will pursue their prosecution?"
Any civil suit brought against PJ would get the ball rolling. As people become more aware of the PJ phenomenon in the media lately, I'm sure many will question the validity of PJ's methods. Detective McLaughlin says Perverted-justice.com's tactics trouble him. "They haven't been around long enough to be reputable. I had just given an interview to a Boston paper saying that Perverted-justice.com is a lawsuit waiting to happen when you contacted me," he says.

One man's attorney, Miriam Rittmaster is in the middle of such a lawsuit. "one man targeted in Channel 5's sweeps-month ratings orgy will file a federal lawsuit against the CBS network; Channel 5's parent company, Meredith Broadcasting; and Perverted-justice.com; claiming that he was misrepresented as a pedophile by the TV stunt and that it cost him a $50,000-a-year job." -- "Reputable group? Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. But I have to very much disagree with him," says Julie Posey, a Wichita mother who operates Pedowatch.com and has helped law enforcement agencies make more than sixty arrests of Internet-surfing pedophiles. She draws a sharp distinction between her methods and those of the vigilantes at Perverted-justice.com. "How could they be reputable? They're into voyeurism and stalking, at best. How do we even know who these people are? Not one of them is willing to give his real name. I've got my name all over the Internet. I don't have to hide." Posey says she wouldn't make a keystroke without cooperation from law enforcement. "You have to follow the law. You have to prove [a suspect's] intent. And you don't go publicizing the evidence everywhere. You need training in what the law is."
ref:
http://www.pitch.com/issues/current/strip.html/1/index.html

Here's a thought...... If parents are so concerned about their children online (And i do have my own children.) WATCH THEM while they're online. Dont run off and go do whatever you want to do..... go nap or whatever.... While your children are online.... you should still be supervising them. You're not going to let a 2 yr old play outside by themselves so why would you let a 13 yr old go online and chat by themselves. isnt that about the same thing? Letting a 13 yr old girl online by themselves is basically letting them outside by themselves at 2am to be molested by someone walking down the street. Kinda stupid if ya ask me. I knew a girl who was 12 yrs old (bout 6 yrs ago) who was online and some guy kept talking nasty to her... She was 12 he was 21..... There was an end to that real quickly. We blocked the chat rooms from her so she couldnt chat anymore...So here's my point... Dont let em chat if you're afraid some guy is going to pursue them in return for sex... I think that someone who doesnt supervise their children is as much at fault as the child finding that crap ... and as much at fault as the guy finding them...... There is a way to stop online pedophilia.... Stop your children from going to these sights!!!!!!!!!! There's no way in hell i'd let my child chat without being supervised... If you want your child to have the internet for school...... then i'd make damn sure you got the parental controls figured out on your internet..... thats all.....thanks

My point on all that was....... we wouldnt need the stupid p.j. people (who dont really do us good anyways) If parents would stop bein so damn lazy and supervise their kids :) :) so what.. p.j. stopped 15 guys in one town......... OH WOWWWW do you know how many towns there are in this country?? a hell of a lot more than they're going to. They do busts in the same areas over and over again.. Doesnt really do us any good...

Wow!
I'm really impressed with the responses here.
There's been alot of really great points made. How can anyone be certain of anything or anyone encountered online? Personal privacy is a right that needs to be protected; but anonymity online creates alot of problems, doesn't it?
Before anyone declares that any statement posted here or anywhere online is fact, there should be a real concentrated effort to find the documented proof to back it up. Where's the proof in any of our statements...the reputable sources and links and documents to support our claims? How much regulation is necessary to protect the individual online from false information or predators? How many rights to free speech or how much privacy are we willing to give up to ensure a 'safe' environment online?
Things to consider.

I am reading what is being written and must say that it is interesting. We all are forgetting one big thing though; it is illegal to post private chat sessions without the consent of the other person. Chat logs fall under the same protection as an e-mail. It is illegal to post without the consent of the other party who is involved.
Further, it not uncommon for most men to engage in sexual conversation and fantasy if encouraged to do so. As a real activist, one must (even actual law enforcement has to adhere to this)let the prospective perp initiate the sexual talk, and let the prospective perp make the request to meet-- it is my understanding that it would fall under entrapment if they were to suggest in any way that they want to meet, or encourage the man to meet. It is also well known that the authorities also give the prospective perp an opportunity to change their mind. Like in cases in which they are portraying themselves as a "hitman" for a murder for hire case. They MUST ask the prospective perp if they are sure they want to go through with having their spouse, rival, etc. killed. Likewise, law enforcement must ensure the person is not just having a hot chat and actually want to meet.
As for Perverted Justice initiating contact, and initiating sex talk (such as the one in that article PJBuster posted- sorry if I credit the wrong poster)where the "minor" said "alcohol gets me horny". That is leading the prospective perp.
I do not know the people from PJ, and am not condemning them on who they are, but rather using facts to find the flaws in their methods.
IF (and this is important) a person KNOWS someone is going to comit a crime and does nothing about it, they are in fact accesories. So to set up meetings with what the men believe are minors, and KNOWING they are coming to comit a possible felony, is (to the best of my knowledge) a crime. It may be a stretch on some cases, however it is enough to mean the difference between an arrest and a conviction.
The fact that they do not actively contact police or let anyone know their real identities (something that is a must when "baiting" people- letting authorities know who you are and what you are doing so you have their backing)leads one to wonder what they have to hide. As a real activist, I was not afraid to give my name to authorities, and IMMEDIATELY turn over all chat logs or correspondence to use as evidence, as well as writing out a report explaining how I came into posession of the information and the names, departments, etc. of the agents I spoke with, to ensure that the proper "chain of evidence" was followed. I will be suprised if they get even a single conviction from the PJ "busts". (It is not much of busts though, when it is guys writing fantasy chat with what may or may not be a minor and then at the end they read "you are busted" and then have to beg for mercy to those who entrapped him).
Anyone who is in it to help, and not in it as an ego trip would NOT let them know they are "busted" but rather will immediately turn the info. obtained over to the proper authorities to ensure these would be criminals are stopped.
As I said before, I am a survivor of those types of abuse (in my childhood) and I do all I can to help prevent REAL children from being harmed- but to do that, one must follow the laws/rules.
Further, one must KNOW the laws/rules.
Here is a link that may help with the age of consent:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/
and if you wish to have someone legitimate check into the legalities of PJ, I suggest you contact your local FBI office or go to www.fbi.gov
And private messages are subject to the same copyright laws as any other electronic message- here is yahoo's info on it:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/copyright/copyright.html
which states:

Copyright and Intellectual Property Agent for Notice
Yahoo! respects the intellectual property of others, and we ask our users to do the same. Yahoo! may, in appropriate circumstances and at its discretion, disable and/or terminate the accounts of users who may be infringing the intellectual property rights of others.

If you believe that **your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, or your intellectual property rights have been otherwise violated,** please provide Yahoo!'s Copyright Agent the following information:

an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright or other intellectual property interest;

a description of the copyrighted work or other intellectual property that you claim has been infringed;

a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;

your address, telephone number, and email address;

a statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright or intellectual property owner, its agent, or the law;

a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your Notice is accurate and that you are the copyright or intellectual property owner or authorized to act on the copyright or intellectual property owner's behalf.

PJ posting private instant message logs IS a violation of copyright laws.
Alot can be done, if those who were "busted" would suck up the embarassment and FILE A LAWSUIT against them for violating their rights.

Please note that I AM against people going to meet what they believe are minors, but am equally against people violating the laws, and using illegal/unethical methods to bust those who go to meet what they believe are minors.
So I am NOT against PJ personally, but am horrified to see them violating so many people's rights, and acting like "masters" making their slaves beg for forgiveness.
They have put a black eye on all who really do try to help stop predators, especially REAL law enforcement agents.

KittenKaboodle said: "How much regulation is necessary to protect the individual online from false information or predators?"
Indeed. The way I see it PJ is the predator. The hapless adult chatter is the victim. When PJ claims to be underaged (which they regularly do well AFTER the conversation has become hot an heavy), they are violating Yahoo TOS (Terms of Service) on several fronts. Misrepresentation, misleading or incorrect profile information, etc. Mild things that go on all the time. Next, disseminating the IM (instant message private chat) to the general public. This is another violation of TOS. Couple this with the intent to slander and there really is a clear violation, if not criminal breech of privacy. The 'Real activist' makes this point but it has been covered before - on my website: "The Yahoo TOS (terms of service) specifically Chapter 6, subpart a, c, d & e, prohibit the disclosure and use of any private information and conversation for the purpose of personal defamement or slander.", and "Pictures of “themselves”, of underaged people, transmitted by the entrappers, or linked to (link edited out) are not given in the chat. You have to wonder whose they are borrowing. And why they are transmitting suggestive child pornography – another violation of Yahoo TOS (terms of service). "

Breaking Yahoo's TOS may not be illegal but 'Real activist's point about implicit copyright violation may be something to consider. Rest assured Yahoo administration has been contacted regarding breeches of their policies. As expected they do not act unless forced by court order.

'Real activist' said: "IF (and this is important) a person KNOWS someone is going to comit a crime and does nothing about it, they are in fact accesories. So to set up meetings with what the men believe are minors, and KNOWING they are coming to comit a possible felony, is (to the best of my knowledge) a crime."
Hence the fall out after the media busts were aired. Local residents were up in arms that pedophiles were lured into their neighborhood - which increased the risk to children in the area (perceived risk). The point is the TV station is facing possible legal action and on ethical grounds they were reckless journalists who create the news rather than report it. Perverted-Justice is implicated of course, which is a good thing coming out of their attempt to ride the media ratings whoring stunt to create an infomercial for themselves. Not to mention individual civil suits by the baited "victims".

'Real activist' said: "... it is my understanding that it would fall under entrapment if they were to suggest in any way that they want to meet, or encourage the man to meet."
Agreed. However, here's an intellectual exercise for you. Master wordsmith and champion obfuscater Xavier, CEO of PJ declares what they do is not entrapment as PJ acknowledges they are not a legal agency - so such a term is null and void. Now I understand there is legal definition of "entrapment", and a plain old colloquial use of the word which we all understand. PJ plays linguistic gymnastics and believes that's sufficient to absolve them of consequence.

'Real activist' said: "The fact that they do not actively contact police or let anyone know their real identities (something that is a must when "baiting" people- letting authorities know who you are and what you are doing so you have their backing) leads one to wonder what they have to hide."
PJ does not pursue prosecution at all. They have a strict policy not to make 1st contact with law enforcement upon uncovering a supposed pedophile. If and when law enforcement steps in on a PJ tip (from perhaps a PJ supporter who does not follow those guidelines), police may initiate evidence gathering on their own accord. Nothing that PJ has done is admissible though. PJ contributors do not want to appear in court and follow through proper convictions because their veil of anonymity, their position of strength to meet out retribution with impunity, would evaporate.

Here's a funny thought. Maybe P.J. is only ''busting'' people to sell their numbers to telemarketers........

PJ Buster,
here are two links which may be useful to you. I hope they help.
1. http://www.kardasz.net/Cybervigilantes.html
2. http://www.crimetime.com/online.htm (It is call the "Black Book")
Hope they help with understanding the dynamics of what PJ is doing.

Just sign me a Real activist

Here is another one:
http://www.ndaa.org/publications/newsletters/
update_volume_14_number_1_2001.html
It is from the American Prosecutors Research Institute of the National District Attorneys Association. it is Some Golden Rules for Investigating On-Line Child Sexual Exploitation

One of them clearly states:
"#5. Give the defendant an out. At some point in the correspondence with the perpetrators, give them "an out." In a traveler case this might be "Are you sure you want to have sex with me? Can't you get in trouble?" In a child pornography case it might be "I'm worried about getting together to exchange pictures. Isn't this stuff illegal? Can't we get in trouble?" This will help the prosecutor to show that the perpetrator had the opportunity to abandon the activity but, rather chose to pursue it."
I will keep looking however I feel that they are not using legal tactics, and that violates the prospective perp's right to due process.

The 1st Amendment doesn't have to get dragged into this issue. While it protects the PJ hacks right to publish their opinions, IT IS NOT A GUARD AGAINST COPYRIGHT/TRADEMARK VIOLATIONS. And there are 3 entities that might have legal recourse. Rob Feinstein, Ring of Honor (RF's wrestling promotion) and McDonalds (!?)
1. RF-PJ has RF's pic on their site in his role as promoter. As PJ makes $ off their merchandise, I think they're vulnerable to this charge. Two scenarios: A. RF Bad-Let's take PJ's spin first. Even if it's correct, think about this. RF sent that pic to what he thought was a 14-yr. old boy, NOT an adult who would make money off it. B.RF Not-bad- RF knew the person at the other end was role-playing, and went along with it. In neither instance did RF give consent, even IMPLIED, for the PJ crew to make $ off his image. (A quick aside. In the RF case, there was a passenger in his car at the time he went to meet the poster. I think this fact alone shoots down the possibility that RF was planning on a sexual tryst with the PJ hack-What, he's just going to wait in the car and indefinite amount of time?)
2. Ring of Honor-ROH has two possible suits against PJ. Defamation. It's impossible to see how there's anything positive about, at the very least, of smearing ROH. In fact, the story has resulted in wrestlers pulling out of shows at almost the last minute. The copyright applies here too, as the pic on PJ is from the promotion itself.
3. McDonalds: This is either a REAL stretch or a clever reading of copyright laws. PJ sells merchandise, including a t-shirt with a pic of a hamburger and a baseball bat. This is a direct reference to a celebrated PJ bust in which the mark arrived at the meet with some McD's num-nums and was met by the PJ hack with a bat. Everyone who orders the shirt KNOWS the McD's link to PJ. One fact McD's may NOT be aware of-What a nasty crew runs this website, and fills it's chat group (click the USENET link on one of PJBuster 2003's pages to see this) There are ties to virulently racist contributors and chat groups (pay attention in particular a bust celebarated by a slimy piece of work with the handle "Massa Blackadder" His post-"N***** wanna be pedo nailed" Since the "Blackadder" name was taken from a BBC series, starring Rowan Atkinson, better known as "Mr. Bean", then copyright and defamation probably apply here too. What's really eyepopping is that not ONE OTHER MEMBER of PJ or it's chat room users FLAMED, or otherwise criticized. I can't think McD's wants to be associated with PJ. Far be it from me to suggest contacting McD's about this, and I would never suggest how ironic and funny it would be if it was e-mailed by a certain Xavier von Irk(intentional).
The above 3 entities all have a shot at these charges, as no waivers/consent was given for PJ to make money off their images.
At the very least, they may be entitled to a share of any monies earned while their images are on the sebsite.

I would love to see law enforcement, (along with solid/reputable media organizations), pull a reverse sting on both PJ and ANY news crew working with PJ when they do a group media bust. There are ways to pull thi off, so ONLY those working the scam on PJ actually respond to the online trolling.
It's news stations and crews that operate with PJ that almost makes me ashamed of my journalism degree. We need more Ed Murrow's, and fewer pieces of journalistic-too-lazy-to-do-REAL-reporting deadwood, such as Harry Hairston, the reporter who helped PJ in both their Philadelphia and Detroit sweeps-ratings stunts, or Steve Chalmarz (?), the reporter in either the Houston or Kansas City bust.

The points that chris has made are very valid points. I believe that if these people were aware of the infringement of their rights and misuse of their photos, etc. there would be civil grounds for them to go after PJ.
I do not want to see ill come to anyone (including those at the PJ site), however I feel that it is important that they realize that there are certain protocol that they must adhere to, as well as rights of others that they must maintain.
Thanks for speaking up, chris.

'Real activist' said: "I do not want to see ill come to anyone (including those at the PJ site),"

I'm sorry I can't be as forgiving, I'd like to see all PJ contributors and many helpers hauled away in handcuffs. Over 600 counts of defamation, slander... to be fined for all counseling that targets went through needlessly after being accused of heinous behavior and suffering mental anguish as a result... to repay lost wages, potential job earnings [lost jobs], and several 100 counts of issuing telephone & email threats. I have one such threat in my hand damn it, from a PJ contributor that was sent to a "bust". Yeah, that's right PJ, your well oiled, or so perfectly iron clad safeguards. Screened & mentally stable contributors. Joke city. Keep it up. Please.

Lie #1:
PJ's FAQ: "
Q. Does this site support violence or harassment against the people you post?
A. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Absolutely not. No. I cannot put into terms how much we DO NOT support violence against anyone we post here. We do not support vigilantism of that sort, we do not condone it, we condemn it. We are civilized individuals and you can do more with the power of scorn than you can of fists. We do not support any type of violence of any kind used against anyone we have posted here, nor do we support harassment of any kind. If a person asks you not to call his number after you've called, you shouldn't call anymore. But supporting violence or harassment? Nope, we never will, and anyone construing us to support violence would be a baldface liar who doesn't understand the point of this site. We are about public exposure, not violence or harassment.

Lie #2:
Bottom of busts: "Perverted-Justice.comcondemns the attempt, use, or even thought of physical violence, extortion or harassment against the individual above. Such actions are not in the spirit of what Perverted-Justice.com is all about and would put your own personal safety at risk."

Lie #3:
PJ agent Cyclona: "No contributor or member of Perverted-Justice.com to our knowledge has harassed anyone and we condemn any form of harassment as wrong." -- From Right of Reply - pidginglsh, Mar/04

Pj Buster,
I hear what you are saying and understand your frustration. I too am frustrated, however, I look at facts. We all know that their "busts" are getting harassed, and that their FAQ does not concur with their behavior, but facts need to be posted. Show a link or something showing where a "bust" claims to being harassed. I have seen some (but lack of time right now so I can not post anything more than this message for now), but for those lurkers or occasional posters who see some posts here is just "accusations", we need to provide proof.
Like with my post about them violating the Yahoo! Terms of Service (TOS)-- I provided the exact wording of the TOS, (and you do that too most of the time), but sometimes I hear "they do this wrong and that wrong" and no evidence of this is posted along with that post. Yes, their FAQ is lies, however, what evidence can we show people of that?
I like your style, and really like your website.
Do you send a link of it to every "bust" so they know what to do and what not to do? (like your site says, DO NOT write a Right of Response). Most people do not realize that. Most people do not realize that they are violating their rights to 'due process' and the laws of 'chain of evidence', and they need to know to file suits or contact the law about it. Yes they made mistakes, and may be potential criminals, but they need to know that usually the law can NOT do anything UNLESS THE LAW themselves catch them doing such things. So do you let them know of your site or do you just hope they check into it?
Real activist

this site posts personal information without the users who is being posted concents. secondly they have done nothing wrong but chatted. its only illegal if it happens, not if it is 'going' to happen, but only IF it happnes. this is illegal in two ways. this site is crap. just trying to make himself look like the public hero. hes a coward that enjoys acting like a little girl. i would worry more about this man that enjoys acting like a little girl, other then some guy chatting with a little girl. i wonder if he dresses up like a little girl when he has these chats?

'Real activist' said: "I look at facts. We all know that their "busts" are getting harassed, and that their FAQ does not concur with their behavior, but facts need to be posted. Show a link or something showing where a "bust" claims to being harassed."
Not everything is accessible on the internet with the click of a mouse. My colleagues and I work directly with some of these ex-"busts", via telephone, email, voice over Yahoo Messenger, and Yahoo Messenger text. We speak to them, their wives, their employers, etc. These conversations are kept confidential to protect our client from further stalking and harassment by PJ. Sometimes the client gives us an exclusive contact method, and it becomes a test of our own reputability that none of what is said makes it back to PJ and on the PJ forum. I think you get the point that the people we are able to reach trust very few people now with good reason. The trust we build with them will not be compromised by us by copying details of their specific case here on this blog.

If I don't always copy TOS'es verbatim I apologize. That's something that can be done, and given links to. Just a bit more time consuming and I want to get the sentiment out there... people can confirm it themselves if thy wish. I understand though.

'Real activist' said: "Do you send a link of it to every "bust" so they know what to do and what not to do? ... So do you let them know of your site or do you just hope they check into it?
Quite simply it is very difficult to reach the ex-"busts". PJ delays their posting of the chat logs, in many cases altering the date shown at the top to make it appear more recent. The individual has already received harassing phone calls by PJ contributors (they huddle via a hidden internal forum that the normal registered user of PJ's forums does not have access to). If the ex-"bust" is smart they refuse to answer the telephone now for the 100th time it rings. Also, PJ has begun to pose as "helpers" who act compassionate and pretend to fight PJ. More fraudulence, but that's their doctrine. By the time we can reach them, a barrier of mistrust has been established and there's not much we can do to fix that.

If you wish to help in our efforts, 'Real activist' and anyone else, then you are most welcome to do so.

Wired News, Mar 18/04
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/
0,1284,62650,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

On Page 2:
"The biggest difference between them and us is that we are governed by entrapment laws," said Sgt. Nick Battaglia, who heads the police department's child exploitation unit in San Jose, California. "Their hearts are in the right place, but the law needs to be enforced by someone who is qualified to enforce them. They need to be very careful or they could get in trouble themselves."

Battaglia said vigilantes like the Perverted Justice volunteers run the risk of being sued for defamation or invasion of privacy.

"If they're insinuating that someone is committing a criminal offense and putting their photograph and personal information online, they could be held libel in a civil suit," he said.
----------
I wonder if that's another newsarticle that won't make it onto the controlled PJ's "PeeJ in the News" page.

As an addendum to 'Real activist' suggestion that 'PJ Buster' pump out emails and IM's to all ex-"busts"...

That certainly is an option. But without the resources to properly confer with the individuals on a one-on-one basis, blanket advice to not write RoR and not cooperate with PJ may just step up the pressure from PJ'ers... One thing PJ'er hate most is individuals who show some resistance to their pressure tactics. There is an element of moral support we provide as well. Simply advising a "bust" to annoy PJ in a short introductory letter without explaining legal avenues open to them may not be helpful.

As I said, 'Real activist' and others can help to educate the victims of PJ by somehow directing them to blogs such as this, to websites and news-articles. My site is an opinion site like any other, but it does encourage people to look at all sides of the issue. I suppose the 1st order of business is to encourage the "bust" to get a user ID and log onto PJ's forum to see for themselves what goes on behind his back. That's a very difficult thing to do... you must remember that he is scared to even log on to the internet; much less read inflammatory comments against his character. Some are on the verge of suicide at this point - possibly having been in a depressed state even prior to having a chat. Now their family and friends have turned against them too. Many do not have the wherewithal, time, or computer savvy to spend time doing this.

I started going to the PJ site back in February after seeing a story about them on my local news. I made a post commending them on the work they do without actually taking the time to thoroughly read the site. I'll admit that I have posted some other things since then, but I have always had reservations about the site.

#1- The "underage kids" sure do have a broad knowledge of sexual terms. I have read stuff on there that I don't know alot about and I'm 33. It's hard to believe that a 12-14 yr old would have that range of experience or knowledge. There are times I have felt as though the contributor conducting the bust was actually enjoying the conversations and the sexual terms being used.
#2- Harassment is condemned, yet what do you call it when the contributors are calling the perps homes and places of employment? What some perv does on the internet doesn't reflect on his family or co-workers. Why drag them into it. Can't they just contact local authorities and let them take over? Then PJ could stay in contact with the authorities to get updates on the offenders.
#3- One of their latest "busts" (roger19722003) is obviously a mentally unstable man. I personally think several of these busts are people who are mentally challenged to some degree. This is not an area where these people are experienced and they need to let the proper authorities handle cases such as these.
#4- I have yet to see a ROR that has met with anyone's approval. They are mostly greeted with smart comments and further contact from contributors.
#5- They want proof that people are seeking counceling for their problem and getting the proper help. Do they think a doctor is going to hand a person's medical file over to them so they can post it on the internet?

Please don't take this to mean that I am supporting sick individuals who do go looking for underage girls in chat rooms. I have a 16 yr old daughter and I understand that sometimes kids get in over their heads and adults who should know better try to take advantage of that. I am echoing the sentiments of another poster who said that parents should be keeping a better eye on their kids. Our computer is in our family room where it is plainly visible at all times. I realize that if kids want to go looking for trouble it's hard to keep an eye on them 24/7. I just have to pray that I have raised my daughter to act responsibly and morally.
While I do think sexual predators need to be dealt with severly, I don't know that PJ has the right to do the things they do.

Concerned said: "#5- They want proof that people are seeking counceling for their problem and getting the proper help. Do they think a doctor is going to hand a person's medical file over to them so they can post it on the internet?"

It is my understanding that patient information can only be released to another treatment provider, physician or mental health provider. To do otherwise is a breach of HIPPA law.
[ HIPPA: Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. Recent amendments to the act increased the penalties for violations of the act. ]

There is no legal or medical reason why anyone from PJ has the authority to have anyones medical records, case in point, they do, they are guilty of a Class C Felony. A statement uttered by a PJ'er on the follow up form such as "yes, we have confirmed XYZ is getting treatment", is a disclosure of such magnitude.

Two RoRs (Right of Replies by the "busted" individuals) contained comments to the effect that a confirmation from his counselor is not logistically possible.

Frankly I have to conclude based on what I've seen one of the following is happening here:

1) The wanna be pedo is faking to be seeking counseling. Has accomplices who pretend to be health care professionals to answer PJ's queries.

2) PJ is making it up that they confirmed he is getting counseling for some reason. Possibly for ego, an "accomplishment" so they can close the thread and move to the next case.

3) There are clear violation that therapists are engaging in. Ie. speaking with some anonymous wanker over the phone who identify themselves only as being a representative of "Perverted Justice".

So-called release-forms that the patient signed be damned. Such a form does not give license to disseminate medical status to the public at large. Anyhow such forms are signed under duress, under fraudulent PJ claims that information would be removed from their site. The counselor should ensure his patient's successful therapy. Not enable PJ'ers to maneuver the vulnerable patient into signing forms. The counselor is in fact instrumentally hindering recovery because PJ'ers are posting doctor/patient confidential information. So the counselor is also failing in his hippocratic oath.

When I figure it out, I take the appropriate actions. Including seeing that therapist get canned if need be.

I would feel better about what goes on at PJ if I thought they were actually wanting to help their "busts". Seems to me like it's just vigilanteism run amuck.

If p.j. is so concerned about the safety of 'childen' Then this is one hell of a way of proving it........
www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=by_tor69
This guy was whipping his stuff out while his 2 yr old was there. And his 2 yr old kept walking in on him..
Dont you think that if p.j. was so concerned about children they should have reported that guy to the police immediately?
Isnt that illegal to expose yourself in front of children (anyone really.. but isnt it worse if its a child?)
He may as well have had his child standing right there while he kept whipping it out.
So obviously p.j. isnt too concerned for the child's safety. They're more concerned about these busts for themselves.. not the children.
If i were to ever see anyone whip out their penis on a webcam and a child was standing there..... and i had their phone number i would defianately alert the authorities that this man was acting that way.
Which i do believe that it would be in the best interest for the child to have reported that kind of behavior immediately. Instead of continue to chat to the man for their own personal benefit. That makes me angry.

That excellent article in the Kansas City weekly (http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-03...ml/1/index.html), about the unfair tactics of PJ and a local CBS affiliate, pulled in some good letters that were published today:

Not his type: I want to thank Tony Ortega for writing "Jail Baited" (March 11). I was appalled by the unfairness the station showed toward John Doe.

I went to school with John Doe, and he was in my fraternity. He was always playing elaborate pranks on other guys in the house, and elaborate pranks were often played on him. Once, we tricked another guy into thinking a girl wanted to meet him for sex. When John Doe says he was curious, I think he may have suspected it was some of his friends playing a prank, and he probably expected to meet them and drink a few beers while they razzed him about being tricked.

Anyway, keep up the great work. Thank you again for writing the article.
Michael Kelley
Fort Smith, Arkansas

Take five: I found KCTV Channel 5's tactics completely ridiculous; it was more like creating a crime where none existed. I hope John Doe gets some justice and the little pecker who portrays himself as a journalist gets the boot.
Dave Schulz
Sunrise Beach, Missouri

People are starting to realize that all is not what it seems at PJ...

PERVERTED-JUSTICE.COM DOES MORE HOME THAN GOOD. IT JUST GIVES PEDOPHILES FODDER FOR THERE FANTASY. AND ANYONE COULD PUT A PICTURE ONLINE AND SAY ITS THEM. AN OLD GIRLFRIEND COULD RUIN A MAN.PERVERTED JUSTICE IS APTLY NAMED.. THERE JUSTICE IN INDEED PERVERTED

FOR ALL YOU SPELING TEACHERS OUT THERE I MEANT HARM 8O)~~

PJ Buster wrote:
>My colleagues and I work directly with some of >these ex-"busts", via telephone, email, voice >over Yahoo Messenger, and Yahoo Messenger text. >We speak to them, their wives, their employers, >etc. These conversations are kept confidential >to protect our client from further stalking and >harassment by PJ. Sometimes the client gives us >an exclusive contact method, and it becomes a >test of our own reputability that none of what >is said makes it back to PJ and on the PJ >forum. I think you get the point that the >people we are able to reach trust very few >people now with good reason. The trust we build >with them will not be compromised by us by >copying details of their specific case here on >this blog.

PJ Buster,
I did not know that there were people 'working' on all of this- I must admit I am very impressed, though! You mentioned your colleagues- are you like a legal agency or other legitimate organization, or are you just concerned citizens? (sorry, I swear I am not questioning your credentials, I am just curious, because I may honestly be interested in helping- I have over 7 years of activist experience, and have learned some good 'investigative resources' which may be of help.)
I do understand the confidentiality, and am glad that you pointed that out, because I was not sure if it was just the "busts" were just writing you on a 'what is going on' basis, or if it was more than that (which it seems to be-- something that requires the confidentiality). I also understand their concern over who to or not to trust.

PJ Buster Wrote:
>If I don't always copy TOS'es verbatim I >apologize.

No need to apologize. I know you and I know where to find such things (such as TOS, or Privacy Policies, or how to report online abuse, etc. but many people online don't) and that was my concern- like with the laws- we can quote them, but people usually want to check things out like that, but usually either do not know how to find the info to verify it, or else they do not want to take the time.

PJ Buster Wrote:
>The individual has already received harassing >phone calls by PJ contributors (they huddle via >a hidden internal forum that the normal >registered user of PJ's forums does not have >access to).

Why does that not suprise me??

Also, PJ has begun to pose as "helpers" who act compassionate and pretend to fight PJ. More fraudulence, but that's their doctrine.

You really seem caring, but you make a valid point. But how can one be sure that you (or I, or anyone here for that matter) is not one of them?

If you wish to help in our efforts, 'Real activist' and anyone else, then you are most welcome to do so.

So do I just contact you through your website? I am not sure if I can help at this point, although I really want to, but I can explain why when I contact you.

Real activist

'Real activist' asks: "are you like a legal agency or other legitimate organization, or are you just concerned citizens?"
Concerned citizens. Some have knowledge in legal matters through direct work experience. Others have skills in other areas. No problem about questioning credentials. We are not a legal organization. We don't represent ourselves to be more than we are - such as feigning law enforcement or legal personnel. We leave impersonating such licensed professions up to PJ's crew. Harmless quackery? Or more laws being broken and we've called them on that,

'Real activist' said: "I have over 7 years of activist experience, and have learned some good 'investigative resources' which may be of help."
Ok. Sure. What is activist experience?

'Real activist' said: "I was not sure if it was just the "busts" were just writing you on a 'what is going on' basis, or if it was more than that (which it seems to be-- something that requires the confidentiality)"
They've contacted us or we've contacted them first. Either way. Sometimes we contact employees of individuals to give them a heads-up on what harassment is about to occur, based on the buzz in the PJ forums. We're genuinely wanting to help people put their lives back together. If we don't tread carefully, we could inadvertently stir PJ's witch-hunters up like angry hornets. We have to weigh carefully our actions - emails to their admin, specific contributors, whatever. More often we contact minion misguided helpers and advise them to cease and desist on their path to harassing an individual - else the full power of the law will be brought to bear and they lose THEIR jobs or even lose major government contracts. We give them zero more chances. Stop or be taken out.

'Real activist' said: "But how can one be sure that you (or I, or anyone here for that matter) is not one of them?" ... "So do I just contact you through your website?"
Unfortunately we've also been contacted by PJ spies pretending to be ex-busts. They try and figure out how real we are, how serious, what our resources are, how we make contact. It's a bit of a cat-and-mouse game.

You signed your comments on this blog with none@none.com. Too bad you chose some illegitimate URL. Now when you contact us we'll have to start all over at square one. Any PJ clone could read this and pretend to be you, or you could be less than sincere. We'll just have to play it by ear. Yes contact through the website's email address. Now I'll get a billion spams. LOL. I think what will happen is we continue to operate independently, at arm's length so-to-speak. There's also a forum for debate, pro- and con- PJ, where no one is blocked or booted for their point of view unlike PJ's:
http://shrubtography.com/phpBB2/ (registration required to post) but I'd hate to reduce the traffic here for eric's sake.

On the PJ message boards, on a "bust" of someone who works for the New York City Fire Department, not content to give the home phone number of the guy's parents, someone posted this:

"I love the men of the FDNY, and i hope they cave this animal's skull in with one of those beautiful silver axes..."

Lovely. Does that sound like someone who really gives a shit about protecting children?

Oh and just to make it clear that it wasn't someone who just slipped in there with a random thought, the poster of that threat was a certain NJ Dreadnaught, who has been a proud PJ'er since January 20 and has already posted 29 clever comments. Such neat people.

pjbuster- I would like to know what you and your "associates" have accomplished so far. I don't think what they are doing is so bad. I highly doubt especially now that there has been so much coverage that they are violating any laws. Do you think that maybe since the victims of pedophiles were looked at shamefully until recent years that this has become so huge that police agencies do not have the manpower to bust these creeps. I really would like to know what ideas you have to catch these guys. I think your right not anyone should be able to bust anyone, people should have training. But there's obviously a problem and I don't hear anyone saying that. Are all of you only anti perverted justice, or do you want to find a resolution to pedophilia?

More of nj_dreanaught's wisdom, Jan 25/04, talking to a "bust" who was baited 2 days prior:

nj_dreadnaught: i'm not gonna try and rip you down, eventhough you deserve every insult thrown at you
huckins69: thanx
huckins69: ur one pf the few
nj_dreadnaught: Don't think i'm your friend
huckins69: no one can bother me as much as I do myself
nj_dreadnaught: You f**king disgust me....

...

nj_dreadnaught: I'm trying to help you..
nj_dreadnaught: although i should just let you get ripped apart
nj_dreadnaught: until one day, after all is gone and your life reduced to even less than it is now.. you finally, in some back ally, decide to put a revolver under your chin and pull the trigger
huckins69: will it get that bad?
nj_dreadnaught: wow... you have no idea, do you......

Then Nikki a PJ contributor (joined PJ Nov 13/03; 1045 posts, avg. 8.3 per day) says the guns comments were unnecessary, to which nj_dreadnaught replies "Sorry, Outa line"
Then Nikki says: "No problem. I just want people to know that we don't want to do that as a practice. You're not the only one who has made comments like that. Many of us have. I just think we shouldn't. It's not necessary, or appropriate, in my opinion.

Don't worry about it, though. [winking smiley]

On with follow up!

[happy smiley]
-------
That's right. Counsel a person to commit suicide, and a PJ executive says don't worry about, and have a nice day. Good thing Nikki can live through nj_dreadnaught vicariously - Nikki did the bust in the first place. And counseling suicide? "You're not the only one who has made comments like that. Many of us have." Let's read that again: "You're not the only one who has made comments like that. Many of us have."

Nikki states in her bio:
"We, at PeeJ, will expose you by informing those around you, in order to create public awareness about what you attempted to do with a child, and so that they can decide for themselves whether or not they want you in contact with their children."

So we have a a contributor who thinks suggesting suicide is a transgression that deserves a "don't worry about it" plus a wink-wink, and encouraging vigilantism based on PJ's "exposing".

are only certain people allowed to read the follow ups on these or what? i havent seen anything like that on the sight. and all i gotta say bout that is.........
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww what is wrong with people
encouraging suicide..... isnt that like the dr who helped ppl commit suicide..... didnt he go to prison for that?

'just me' asks: "are only certain people allowed to read the follow ups on these or what? i havent seen anything like that on the sight. and all i gotta say bout that is.........
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww what is wrong with people"

Anyone can read their followup antics. You should. It's an eye opener. That's where the vigilantism brews in ernest. You need to register a user ID there. Ups their membership count some more for bragging rights.

Of course their impressive hit count of 1000's per day is due in large part to search engines hitting them via the ubiquitous word "perverted". LOL. They're not stupid.

That nj_dreadnaught unpleasantness is under their Followup Forum, bust ID 'huckins69', Jan 24/04, page 2. I'd give you the link but their pages are dynamic. Sorry, 'Real activist'.

pjbuster- Please respond to my questions above. You have not once addressed pedophilia which is what the real issue is. Do you not care about that? I would hope bringing perverted justice down is not all you want to do, I hope your also looking for ways of stopping pedophilia.

'I' asks: "I would like to know what you and your "associates" have accomplished so far. I don't think what they are doing is so bad."

We'd like to think we're putting a tiny dent in their operation. Our accomplishments for which we can take some credit directly or indirectly:

1) PJ has removed several forum threads that contained confidential data.
2) PJ has removed names of data services companies whose access policies were clearly violated.
3) PJ has removed names of reputable institutions mentioned there with a view to besmirch their good standing.
4) PJ has censored names of utilities, programs and other resources whose use (misuse) would put PJ into legal hot water.
5) PJ has removed email addresses of officials with clout so that further harassing contact is not made by onlookers.
6) PJ has removed comments critical of their methods. In some cases resulting in barring users and/or blocking IP addresses from accessing the site.
7) PJ has erased PJ employee dialog without a trace, followed by curtailing any further use of affected user ID.
8) PJ has strongly advised against pursuit of victims if they are members of the military. [ FYI: any threats made against members of the United States military is a terrorist act ]
9) PJ has mysteriously halted followup for undisclosed reasons, even for blatantly unrepentant victims.
10) PJ has removed website logos, changed the look of their forum pages from devil-worship black to a kinder, gentler light-blue.
11) PJ has added disclaimers re. bribe-taking, chat validity, and stance with regard to harassment and stalking. Cleverly they distance themselves from actions taken by the 1000’s of followers who they intentionally stir up like angry hornets.
12) The forum is relegated as an autonomous, non moderated part of PJ. The only “truth” alleged is the chat log, Yahoo ID, and phone number of the baited person. The PJ moderators distance themselves from the forums’ contents and take no responsibility for messages posted therein.
13) PJ moderator has forbidden the use of the word “harass” in the forums by contributors. The word is automatically censored and substituted with “contact”. This garners some consistency with their statement that harassment is not a condoned practice. It cleans up the forum in appearance but in no way diminishes harassment PJ is carrying out on its victims.
14) PJ has revised their FAQ and mission several times, in band-aid fashion, over the past few weeks since we have come onto the scene.

'i' says: "I really would like to know what ideas you have to catch these guys. I think your right not anyone should be able to bust anyone, people should have training. But there's obviously a problem and I don't hear anyone saying that. Are all of you only anti perverted justice, or do you want to find a resolution to pedophilia?"

Well, for one thing, "these guys" which PJ busts are entirely the wrong targets. They do not fit the clinical definition of sexual predator - as was described earlier on this blog I'm sure. Secondly, "obviously a problem" is an assumption that's magnified by PJ's fear mongering and the manufacturing of made-to-order perps through the fantasy chats. I doubt real incidents of pedophilia have increased in number per capita since chat rooms became available. Statistics show that children are actually far more likely to be abused by someone in their own family than by some lech on the Internet. Quoted from The Pitch - Kansas City Strip http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-02-19/strip.html/1/index.html

Yes at this point we are anti-PJ. A resolution to pedophilia may require an increase in taxes to get the necessary resources on board. How many PJ'ers are willing to go for that? How many will want to go for training in a field such as law enforcement, child protection, counseling, etc.?

So what is PJ doing, if anything? Nothing worthwhile I can see. Do I have a solution to pedophilia as a concept? No.

'I' said: "You have not once addressed pedophilia which is what the real issue is"

Actually the issue in this blog is Perverted-Justice.com

As someone who is almost embarrassed by my journalism degree, The news crews that help PJ with their online voyeurism won't be able to hide behind the 1st amendment much longer. It's this kind of deadwood-too-lazy-to-do-REAL-reporting, give-me-my-closeup-now-and-fawn-all-over-me Harry Hairston's that give REAL reporters a bad name.
The news crews get involved for 2 reasons. 1. It saves them from having to do real work-investigating, interviewing all major parties involved, digging through voluminous amounts of data, research and correspondence (like looking through news articles or back issues of newspapers on microfilm/fiche), doing follow-up with the parties involved. That's why REAL investigatve stories and reports take a long time to assemble.
So why do the crews that team with PJ take the shortcuts? Well, an issue is SO much easier to cover if only one side is covered in depth-in these cases, the in-depth work is used to make the PJ marks look monstrous, evil, stupid, and just downright not nice. The investigation NEVER looks at PJ in anything other than a cursory, fawning way. So why do the cheap stunts? That's easy
2. SWEEPS-These media busts are always timed to air during the four times a year that ratings take on even more importance, as it's the SWEEPS ratings that determine ad rates until the next sweeps period. In the past, news crews would actually do INVESTIGATIVE reports and pieces-consumer safety (like the firestone-ford explorer fiasco), past wrongdoings not yet corrected (like U.S. Indian tribes alleging the fed govt. has not paid the tribes anywhere near what they're owed-mineral rights on tribal property is one example, holocaust survivors suing life insurance companies for benefits that were never paid as promised would be another. And environmental degradation is ALWAYS a good subject.)
Yet the trend now is to go for scandals that don't affect the larger society-the Chandra Levy, Laci Peterson stories, OJ's trial. In the Levi and Peterson cases, I don't have a complaint about how much attention their families were able to generate-I just wish the media would show this same amount of attention, wailing and teeth-gnashing in other missing person cases too. Quick-how many non-white children/adults who go missing EVER get the same amount of attention? Us white folk have GOT to get over the OJ case-yeah, he's slimy and scummy, but except for the Browns and Goldmans, how did this trial affect anybody else, especially financially? With these busts, the most amount of work involved is during the editing. This might be a good source of information for anyone suing PJ-the UNEDITED tapes of everything that went on at the bust site while PJers troll for their marks. Since the PJ website obviously goes everywhere, a suit in FEDERAL court is a potent weapon to throw back, especially in considering the next fact-You don't need ANY judge's approval to issue binding and fully legal SUBPEONAS. During depositions (taken from all parties before any trial), the PJ baiters would have to give truthful answers as They'd be undr oath. Another plus-most depositions are now videotaped and publicly released (in some cases, the depo. is released during a trial, others before, and others after.) I'd sure like to see X. von Irk and his fellow ass-kissing cult zombies squirm and whine under the combination of being both under oath and on film.
X. von Irk-"I'm NOT ready for my closeup your honor"
PJ is just a high-tech Joe McCarthy attitude; You're guilty until proven innocent, which you NEVER are.
The thing is, these groups, at some point, ALWAYS overplay their hands and end up as destroyed as their victims. The firefighter, USMC and Rob Feinstein busts may be the best way to bring the whiplash on ALL the scrawny-throated slime at PJ.
This group is headed for a very nasty finish, and when the issue of $ damages kicks in, watch how quick these parasites turn on eadch other to cut deals for any legal problems they're about to face.

Another thing the news crews that team with PJ may wish to consider. If PJ is sued successfully, the news teams can't be far behind. Worse for them-the stations that employ them wiil be the ones who get NAILED for financial damages, they've probably got much deeper pockets than the PJ crew.
The rope holding Damocles sword over PJ is fraying quicker now, and PJ sure won't like it when the sword snaps free.

''I'' says......I hope your also looking for ways of stopping pedophilia.

Now if other people tried to find ways of stopping pedophilia, then we'd all be up the same shit creek that p.j. is.
No one who isnt law enforcement can really do anything about the pedophilia issue we have here. We cant just go out there and start yelling stop pedophilia. It wouldnt do any good.
What are you doing to stop pedophilia?
Just wondering..........
The ways i've tried to stop it.. I've seen older men acting all sexual around a 12 year old girl. I reported it to Child Protection, the police, Do you know what good that did??? NONE and ya know what? NOW that man is in prison for the next 15 years for Molesting that girl. AS much as it makes me angry and hateful towards the people who should have protected that girl when i tried to prevent it from happening, there's not a damn thing i can do about it, I've been proven that.
So what do you suggest that anyone does to stop pedophilia???

Pedophilia concerns adults who molest prepubescent children, usually under 10. Pedophiles ARE NOT interested in sexually active teenagers. For pedophiles, it's the corruption of the child's sense of innocence that's the sexual draw, almost reverse-imprinting (imprinting-best example-The chick thinks the first creature it sees after hatching is its mother)
Regarding teens, short of sexual assault or outright rape, the only charge that has ANY kind of legal sanction against adults is Statutory Rape-The victim is willing, but under the age of adulthood. This charge is used when there's stated or implied consent on the part of the teen, a legal way of counteracting the consent claims from the defendant.
Also, if the case mentioned above is correct, then the guy's in prison for 15 years. I doubt he'll get to molest/assault many children while behind bars. Sounds like that's how the issue is dealt with-by the professionals (cops, prosecutors, defense attorneys, social workers, judges) who get paid for getting the bad guys.
The fact that these groups can be held LEGALLY and financially responsible for their mistakes gives me confidence that all sides usually try to get it right. The fact that PJ doesn't hold itself accountable for its inflammatory rhetoric and actions should trouble everybody concerned with making sure the legal system really works.
Remember
Paid professionals + financial accounability=GOOD
PJ+no legal authority+no correct info on ANY domain registration+cyber/real time stalking=BAD

In further reply to the above, this story just broke-There's been the first ever guilty verdict in a shild molester case tried under a 2003 law. The law makes it illegal for any US citizen to travel abroad for the purposes of sexual conduct with children. Again, another reason to leave this kind of thing to the paid professionals. Sorry, I don't know how to create a link.

www.news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/1110/3-19-2004/20040319053002_28.html

Here is a link to a news article about one of PJ's "busts" who has gotten an attorney. I will highlight something about it. (And PJ Buster, I am working on an email to send to you, but the reason I use none@none.com here, is because I do not want my personal email addy to be gotten by anyone who may misuse that info. But I will send an email from my legitimate email addy when I write to you.)
link to the article:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/
0,1284,62676-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1
Highlights:
"Smith, whose teacher's union refused to support him, is now on paid administrative leave. He hired a lawyer to press invasion of privacy and harassment charges against the group, but the lawyer has been unable to ascertain the volunteers' true identities.

Meanwhile, he's had to deal with the scorn of his colleagues and neighbors.

"I have a long road to go with my wife, and my kids will eventually find out as well," Smith said. "I'll have to build a new life, find a new career. My life is ruined in many ways." "

'Real activist' - that's an old case, but new article. Check out this one:

Mike Wendland: "Vigilantes on Internet create trouble for cops" - Sep 25/03
http://www.freep.com/money/tech/mwend25_20030925.htm

More comments here:
Tech:Knowledge: "Vigilante site runs stings on “wannabe pedophiles”
http://mikesejournal.com/archives/002238.php

.... school teacher, 42, was about to commit suicide - gun had trigger lock.

This is landmark case that put PJ "on the map" so-to-speak.

Someone ( Whisper Trigger ) asked PJ if there is any protocol to follow when chatting with a recent "bust" -

---------------------
JanewayPI110 (Joined: 10 Jan 2004; Posts: 429 - avg. over 6 per day)
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:53 pm

Never threaten or extort.

Block your number or better, use a calling card that will block it. (*67 is not foolproof)

If they tell you not to call again, don't -- that's considered h@rr@ssment.

Don't claim that you are PJ staff.

Other than that, try to get information that will help pin down their identity... name, address, employment, birthdate, etc. Make sure that you are fully informed about how PJ works so that you will be able to answer any questions they might have.
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perritoo (Joined: 15 Nov 2003; Posts: 1307 - avg. over 10 per day)
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:01 pm

Any contact with 'busts' is done as a private citizen, not as a representative / affiliate of PJ. In other words, feel free to say "I saw your chat posted on PJ" but don't say "I'm calling as a representative / member of PJ" or any variation thereof. PJ does not prescribe protocols for contact except to say that they do not condone threats or acts of violence, or any action/s that can be legally interpreted as har@ssment.

On a side-note, any information you can get from them regarding contact details, etc. is always very valuable & should be posted in their 'follow-up' thread.

That's my personal interpretation; I leave myself open to correction by moderators and / or contributors.
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So let me get this straight. PJ has "staff" / "members", and are worried someone outside of that burrow is a mere private citizen and not a representative of PJ. My interpretation is that PJ is not a corporation / institution / not-for-profit agency or any other legal entity, hence they are private citizens themselves. The people who support them with followup work ARE as much acting in the spirit of PJ as the PJ custodians. I see no difference. Sorry PJ, you can distance yourselves from your bootlickers, but it doesn't wash. Also it speaks to how you treat your loyal chumps - they're great to gather information and do harassment, but just don't let any of that reflect back on the great PJ collective.

All accomplices are equal, but some accomplices are more equal than others ...

If you don't think what PJ is doing is such a bad thing then maybe you should do what they do for yourself.

Pick someone you know (it can even be someone you don't like!), lure them onto a chat client whatever way you can, send them a message pretending to be a 14 year old, and then say whatever it takes to get them to say something inappropriate.

If you succeed then make flyers with there picture on it calling them a pedophile, put whatever they said on it (its ok to take quotes out of context or make assumptions here its for sensationalism no one wants to read a boring flyer), and then give it to all their relatives, neighbors, and co workers. Be sure no one ever finds out who actually made or handed out the flyers.

Hey this should be great fun for the family why not encourage your male teens to do this to, sadistic humiliation should be fun for the whole family. We all know how much male teens love to make fun of other people, what harm could come of it? I am sure they will learn a important lesson about respecting children and women while completeing this project.

Just remeber that scum of the earth that deserves to be ostracized and humiliated could be your coworker, your neighbor, or even your relative! Its up to you as a young male who loves to harass people to let them know exactly what they are and make sure they end up homeless on the street.

***This has been a paraody please do not take this as actual encouragement to do something that likely will get your skull bashed and innocent people injured***

I just get upset whenever I see uninformed supports of PJ who actually believe that everyone posted on the site was met in person or verified via phone. News flash for those who don't know there are tons of "busts" posted on PJ that do not meet their guidelines for posting busts this was told to me in this very thread by PJ contributors after I posted links to those busts. Busts that don't meet the PJ guidelines STILL ARE POSTED. Do yourself a favor and ask what exactly they are doing in the busts they do not post.

Maybe it's nothing but it seems odd to me that the latest promised PJ TV "busts" aren't appearing and there have not been any new "busts" on the site yesterday or so far today. Could it be that some attorneys have finally gotten to the perverts at PJ?

Could be. There is so much on those two sites that is actionable--it would be great if a high-powered lawyer hired by, oh I don't know, say Rob Feinstein, brought the whole fuckin' thing down.

Great post nobody important--all excellent points.

PJ is going down--this kind of injustice can't be sustained (especially when, as was pointed out earlier, ignorant, mean-spirited people like PJ always overreach).

nobodyImportant said: "I just get upset whenever I see uninformed supports of PJ who actually believe that everyone posted on the site was met in person or verified via phone. News flash for those who don't know there are tons of "busts" posted on PJ that do not meet their guidelines for posting busts this was told to me in this very thread by PJ contributors after I posted links to those busts."

Thanks for reminding me... I looked up this very issue Monday, Mar 15/04.

Over 600 busts: Lies, damn lies, and statistics    

PJ contributor 'Jager' said on Jan 11/04 Reaction Forum "Meridoc_tx removed due to ROR"
"... if I remember correctly, every file since Sept 2003 requires a phone verification."

- PJ is in existence since July 2002 according to FAQ
- 616 "busts" to-date...

Since September, approximating 1/2 way thru september, there were 410 busts. That means 206 (1/3 of total) were improperly verified according to PJ's current guidelines.

That means 1/3 of the total busts - the ones that occurred prior to September have been conducted with less stringent identity verification than is in use today.

PJ does not have consistent rules-of-engagement yet counts all busts as having been conducted properly.

Sep/03 39 (1/2 is 20)
Oct/03 40
Nov/03 81
Dec/03 75
Jan/04 95
Feb/04 52
Mar/04 47
--------
410 proper busts
206 improper busts
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616 total (as of Mar 15/04)

A story in Saturday's New York Times, about vigilantes taking on the fraudulant vendors on e-bay had this to say:

"EBay, based in San Jose, Calif., has 800 people deployed around the world to fight fraud, he said, and does not need amateur help. "Just like in the offline world," he said, "you can't have people running around taking the law into their hands.""

That is even more true with PJ. You can't have people using such a hot button issue as pedophilia to entrap people, insist on their guilt and try to destroy them.

This has got to stop.

I found this on a salon article to be most interesting,
"Her modus operandi: "I make up an alias on Yahoo chat. I find a picture from somewhere, usually a porn site. But I don't use a nude one. I say: 'Hi, my name is blah blah.' Then, the flood of instant messages come in. I almost always get a response." This is a direct quote from one of the so called busters that uses the alias "Satine." If you are interested in the article you can go to this site: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/
2003/09/15/perverted_justice/index_np.html. The interesting feature of that quote, of course, is that "Satine" admits to using a picture of an, of age woman, when soliciting people during the AIM chats. This, it seems to me, puts grave doubts on the supposed fact that the individuals targeted by PJ actually want to abuse UNDERAGE girls. It seems to me that during all of these sexually explicit discussions these individuals have a picture of an, OF AGE, woman in mind. I have to say that I am amazed that this information hasnt been made clear to the public.

The dark stain in the heart of each and every current PJ baiter is about to overtake the rest of their lives, and joyous hatred blinds them to the judgement rushing their way.

When I read about this on wired a couple days ago, I didn't know what to think. Then I started reading about p.j. and realized that's they're self-serving egomaniacs.

Has anyone tried to beat them at their own game? It would be quite possible.

First, explain what you're trying to do, stick it in an envelope, stamp it and seal it and drop it in the mailbox addressed to yourself. The postmark will be dated, giving some credibility for your evidence. Repeat several times.
Next, seek out one of thier trolls. Go through the usual motions. Videotape everything. Record the phone call. Log the conversation. After the call, hit *57 to trace it (not just *69... *57 is an actual trace that will go on record with the police)

When they call your work, give them one of your stamped letters and explain what was going on. Then sue their asses for harassment. Call the police! You have a foolproof legal defense: You KNEW you were speaking with an adult! By posting their accusations they've confirmed this! You've got a mountain of evidence to show you weren't commiting a crime, and they've been caught red-handed harassing you. Finally sue their asses off. I'm talking about upwards of $100,000 dollars... enough to shut them down for a long long time.

There are other possibilities as well:

First of all, 14 is the legal age of consent in Canada. Get a Canadian guy to be propositioned by a PJer claiming to be 14. Harassment begins, they've comitted no crime, police are contacted, follow as above.

A much safer way: Make up an identity, get a cheap prepaid cellphone, and sprinkle personal information around the web. Send fake pictures on the webcam! Repeat several (dozen) times. Then reveal that they're fake. Ooops, did PJ just get discredited?

This leads to a major concern for me. How difficult would it be to impersonate somebody else? Somebody real? PJ could be used to harass completely innocent people, simply by impersonating them and providing some of their information. Their reseach slaves will gladly fill in the blanks. Suddenly, someone who's never even heard of PJ loses their job and is labeled a pedophile in their community.
Think of the extrordinary, almost unprecidented potential for abuse here!

How can protecting the innocent not involve any sort of due process?

That's a good point, 'newguy'. If the picture was obtained "from somewhere usually a porn site", it pretty much has to be one that is of-age. Unless of course said picture is in fact of a minor, and if found on a porn site then the PJ contributor frequents kiddy-porn sites which is even scarier. There's the issue of obtaining release permission from a parent or legal guardian to use a picture of a minor. Even if it's an adult, using those in PJ's cause must be another violation of the originating site's Terms-of-Service and/or is copyright infringement.

The issue of a picture portraying someone older has been mentioned many times - by the baited person. Including Rob Feinstein the high-profile "bust" recently. Also, the voice verifier that calls out to confirm the telephone number sounds older than what was indicated by the baiter in the text of the chat. So the mental image that the person has - based on picture supplied, voice, writing sophistication, and of course sexual experience well beyond the age of the claim made in chat, one has to wonder if the baited individual truly believed he was talking with an adult - one who is role playing. Why would, in the light of all the evidence to the contrary, a mention of an age of 14 or 15 in the text be the only truth that the wanna be pedo is supposed to go by?

It is also interesting to note that if there was a link to a picture mentioned in the chat - it is subsequently xxxxx'ed out before the chat log (no longer a bona-fide transcript) makes it to the PJ front page. If PJ wants sympathetic agreement in persecuting an individual then I would think leaving that picture up would make the whole affair all the more incriminating. A lot of things don't add up.

Let's know more about this Satine, PJ pedo hunter.

Satine is an 18 year-old college sophomore. Her Yahoo ID is satine_perverted_justice_queen. She joined PJ Aug 25/02 and has 843 posts, an average of 1.47 per day. An obvious groupie of Xavier's, her avatar of a nude woman is captioned "Mrs. Von Erck". Amazingly her first PJ "bust" was made Aug 24/04, one day prior to her joining.

From her bio: "I've been with Peej a little after Frank and Xavier set up the first site. I started contributing for personal reasons and if you really want to know, I have no trouble whatsoever telling you. I am currently a college student. How do I find the time for college and Peej? Magic elves."

Her groupie infatuation continues to current times:
Feb 10/04 "I had a dream about about AG and PA a few nights ago. It was very odd. For some reason I went to live with them and their townhouse was haunted by a guy man that died in a rubber dinosaur costume."
AG is Angry German AKA Xavier Von Erk, and PA is Phoebus Apollo.

Sep 3/02 "Satine here... I have to say, out of all the idiots I've caught, about 4 have said 'nope, sorry too young' It really does amaze me at how sick and perverted men and women can actually be. *sigh* Humanity at its finest."

Fresh out of the gate and already has caught "all the idiots". 4 of which said "too young", and she still labels them sick and perverted nonetheless. By Sep 3/02 she's "busted" 9 already.

Some more wisdom from this flake who's ruining lives:

Feb 12/04 "I pluck and shape my eyebrows everyday until they are absolutly perfect."
Mar 16/04 "I fiddle with my piercings. I leave my used towels on the floor. I fall asleep with the TV and lamp on. I say "like" a lot. (ie "I was like, whoa!") I'm always early for everything. I NEVER let different foods touch each other on my plate. I let the phone ring at least twice before answering. I think I just have OCD...." [Obsessive Compulsive Disorder]

Thanks for the great reporting PJ Buster. Peoples' lives should not be destroyed by these kinds of maladjusted freaks.

And Anonymous...for now makes some great suggestions on taking action. The post also clarifies serious concerns about how easy it would be to do this to someone. Get an image of your enemy--buy a prepaid phone--give enough information on full name, family, friends and career to keep the PJ forums crackling with paranoid fantasies--and just let 'er rip. As soon as the bust is posted, the phone would be turned off, and everyone would see a picture of their friend, son, boyfriend or co-worker engaging in something that looks horrifying. Sure the guy would claim his innocence--if he ever made it to a court of law he could even prove it--but who would listen? Just the accusation of pedophila is so emotional that even reasonable people throw reason out the window.

There is absolutely no way that PJ can assure this could never happen (especially in these kinds of cases, their phone "verification" is bogus). And given the twisted, juvenile minds of their contributors (thanks, Satine, for the information on some of your more curious conditions), I have every reason to think that they would do something like this. They've already proven themselves to be morally dubious--why not just completely set someone up?

Before too long, chère Satine, you'll be plucking your eyebrows in the pen.

Very good. And when the forums get drab, perk them up with buzzing PJ hornets by writing in a really sincere RoR (Right of Reply). This makes it to the top of the page. That should rekindle their fervor.

* Be real contrite and apologetic too. They love that. They'll say you're a whiner, bullshitter, aren't taking this seriously, and things are about to get worse for you because you snivel and grovel. Now they have additional IP addresses to attack. Drop another name of a brother or something,... more targets for them.

* Tell them your wife is supportive - that will get the PJ dogs calling your enemy's wife and accusing her of enabling a pedophile. "She's probably one too anyhow"

* Tell them your are seeking counseling from a clergy - that will get PJ steaming about how their mission is secular and has no place for your worthless religious faith.

* Tell them you are very sorry that this happened and you hope you can go on with your life and family - sons & daughters. This will cause the PJ scum to accuse you further of having molested them as well.

* Tell them you want your information removed from the site after all this is over, like they promised they would subsequent to writing a RoR - that will get a lot of HAH HAH HAH HAH

Jager, one of the contributors and busters on www.perverted-justice.com , has been publically revealed to be Jason Delaney.

http://www.thetimesherald.com/news/stories/
20040303/localnews/3446.html

Just a few, unrelated points.

In the, "It's not as good as the 'In Chicago, voters take their duty SO seriously that they vote in every single election, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE dead', but still amusing" category, we learn that Saltine (intentional), AKA "Mrs. von Irk" made her first PJ bust before she was even a member of the group. Mrs. von Irk, remember what happened to the LAST couple of folks who were "psychic"-Linda Georgian? (hysterical ad for 900 phone # on numerous back-covers of tabloids says LG "HOSTED" the Psychic Friends Network, yes, Dionne Warwick's dear, close personal friend) And, of course who could forget Miss Cleo? OH MY GOD! what if Saltine von Irk is actually Linda Georgian or Miss Cleo? If past results are any indication and Saltine IS lg or Miss c, everyone at PJ might want to start hiring lawyers and cutting deals now, to avoid the inevitable rush to the finish line in the DA's office when criminal and civil charges start hurtling their way.
(with a nod to a great title I wish I'd thought of, "FISH. BARREL. BOOM"-Does the fact that X. von Irk refers to his site as "PeeJ" strike ANYONE else as just even the tiniest bit infantilistic? (if it wasn't a word before, it is now) So let's get this straight-X von Irk and his A-KCZ'z (Ass-Kissing Cult Zombies)role play, for hours at a time, as sexually drenched (ie active and obsessed) teenagers, yet use an infantile way of spelling the site "PeeJ" while at the SAME TIME, labelling others as wanna-be pedophiles, is that correct X von Irk? Hmmmm, let's just call this observation "POT. KETTLE. BLACK"
And lastly, in the category of "The Greek tragedy reference is so on target it's scary" category, a BIG thumbs up(somewhere anyway) for everybody's favorite little ray of sunshine, PHOEBUS APOLLO. Phoebus Apollo was one of Zeus' sons, his most favored. Watch how this works if we think of X. von Irk as Zeus especially in terms of emotional insecurity and paranoia.
In "Prometheus Bound", by Aeschylus, Zeus sends PA to learn Prometheus' OTHER big secret-how Zeus would be toppled from his vantage point of the Supreme god. Ironic, as Zeus seized this position from HIS father. PA gets infuriated (like the PJ folks do if anyone fights back) that Prometheus doesn't tell the details, even after being chained to a mountain while going through the the agony of having his liver ripped out every day by a vulture. PA's anger and frustration rise as Prometheus, in spite of his pain, actually taunts, gloats and exults at both Zeus and PA. It frustrates both gods, especially as they sense the overthrow is soon to occur. Unfortuantely, the follow-up "Prometheus Unbound" is one of the lost Greek dramas, so I don't know how it happens. But I'd guess some flaw of arrogance leads to Zeus' downfall. I think the last part of the analogy really fits X. von Irk, PA and the rest of the "real-cop wanna-be's" at PJ Let's hope the Greek analogy only applies to the PA name-In Aeschylus masterpiece "The Oresteia", the fall of the House of Atreus starts when Agamemnon's (leader of the Greek forces in the Trojan War) father has his nephews killed, then ground up and served to their father (A's uncle) at mealtime. It wasn't until after the eating commenced that A's uncle learned the awful truth.
One last thing-
I've noticed there's one thing evil bastards, such as PJ hacks, dictators and religious fanatics absolutely loathe, above even the worst of insults. That's being Laughed at. (How many mad scientists hatch their evil plans after their colleagues at the Institute/college,academy all laughed at his plans and called him "Mad" Well, who's laughing NOW?) Laughing at these sick folks burns harder and deeper than ANY physical pain ever could.

Yes It does Erk me that they label their sight PeeJ. Either that means they like playing with their peepees too much or they like watching people in their pajamas.... which is usually only children who wear pajamas.... and call them peej's. either way. sick sick sick

What's in a name? I would like to know. "Just Me" mentioned the name-- well, I started to think back a bit, and I knew the name "PeeJ" seemed to click in my mind. Where did the name spelled P-E-E-J originate? With the PJ people, or was that just a nickname that non-PJ people started using? There was once (a few years ago) someone who signed their name peej in some darker yahoo groups who was an admitted "boylover", and I did more checking, and found that there is also a peej in the sex stories communities online, and about six years ago, there was a peej (all spelled P-E-E-J) who was big in the incest communities.
Further, when talking to a friend on the phone and talking about all of this, he said "did you ever think that peej stood for urine- pee-j?" So I was wondering if someone in the PJ website used that nickname, or whether it originated as a shortened form of Perverted-Justice from non PJ people.
Any clues anyone?
I want to make it clear though, that I am in no way accusing anyone at PJ of being one of the above mentioned peejs. I was just wondering if there was any info as to the origins of that spelling of PJ (P-E-E-J).

Your courses of investigation have taken mind boggling routes that are seemingly unconected and I can no longer agree with that. It is becoming reminiscent of reading the PJ follow up forum.

nobodyimportant,
I do not understand what you mean. What do you mean "your course of investigation have taken mind boggling routest"? I understand that the questions I pose may seem unconnected, however when trying to figure things out, all avenues need to be checked, or at least ones that may seem even remotely related. I mean I have seen people use their initals as part of their nics online, and so sometimes names people use tell alot about what they are all about, or what makes them tick.
I am sorry if my questions caused you to feel uncomfortable or seem "reminiscent of reading the PJ follow up forum" (I personally have never been there- I do not want to go there because I am sure their site logs IP numbers of users or those who check things out too closely). So I do not know what you mean by that. Once again, sorry if what I wrote made you feel uncomfortable or upset. That was not my intention. I was just trying to figure out if the spelling of "peej" had anything to do with any other "peej" activities online. Just trying to cover all bases.

Real activist

PS- I did not "investigate" those links with the names, but rather have known about them due to activist work I did over the past 7 or 8 years. So it was just knowledge I had picked up over time, didn't take me any time to wonder about the spelling. I guess I should have just wondered to myself instead of wondering "aloud" about it here. Next time I will know :-)

Real activist: wondering out loud is a good thing. I don't know about any of those avenues but there is nothing wrong with shooting ideas out there. Can spur others to thought.

As for the PJ forums, you really should go. It is there that you gain a more complete understanding of the malevolent and mediocre nature of PJ contributors. They say that the site is in two parts--PJ.com and the forums--you're missing the most offensive part.

Although they do track IP addresses, and ban for even the mildest criticism, it is easy to go there and simply observe. You can also post the kind of juvenile, boot-licking posts they like in order to ferret out information.

I highly recommend it...although, afterwards, you might want to plan on taking a shower.

hey Edge.... Thanks for the 'warning'''I highly recommend it...although, afterwards, you might want to plan on taking a shower.'' After reading the busts i feel like i need about 10 showers........ Guess i shouldnt visit the follow ups...... cuz i'll never get out of the shower........... LOL

I concur with edge. The real damage is being done in their forums - Followup and Reaction sections. This is under different domain www.superpatriot.net. In fact both domains, plus several others of Xavier's anarchistic ramblings are registered under the same registrant (fraudulent & bogus contact info contrary to domain name Registrar rules)

Their argument is - that is a separate portion, unconnected, and thus PJ "proper" is not responsible for what 1000s of registered users post there as far as researching name/address/companies, and as far as calling for harassment to ensue. The truth is, the PJ contributors (job description denotes the 20-24 inner-circle "staff", the people doing busts) - are instrumentally involved in the forums as well. They give help, as they call it, to steer the helper lemmings in the right directions. So their legal machinations about not knowing or controlling what people do with the information provided is disingenuous. The entire PJ site is monolithic in their intent - both the white pages as I call them (perverted-justice) and the blue pages (superpatriot). As well, Xavier who remains deliberately distant, has done at least one "bust" himself, contradicting his promise he would never do so for legal reason to remain at arm's-length. His censoring any occurrence of the word 'harassment' in the forums is case-in-point of his direct involvement and control there --- he voids his Zeran Protection [Zeran vs. America Online, in which the Court determined the Communications Decency Act of 1996 (CDA) 47 U.S.C. 230 gives immunity from liability to ISP's and interactive computer services, such as America Online.]

At the risk of upping their membership count, I encourage everyone to join there and see for themselves to full extent of the burgeoning plague of the internet that is perverted-justice. You may need two showers.

As a so-called "non-profit" website (then why does it end in ".com" as opposed to ".org") PJ makes $ off merchandise. Some questions
1. Is Superpatriot.net also a non-profit organization? If it is, does the IRS allow money from one part of the network to commingle with other sites on that network, or would each site be restricted to the funds raised on their own pages?
2. The "Zoran" protections apply to 1st amendment claims, it DOES NOT protect against copyright/trademark infringement claims. By the Way, "Zoran", like every other 1st amendment issue applies ONLY to any branch of any govt. at any level, but not to Private industry/businesses. Example; It's a 1st Amendment violation if the govt. tries to censor a reporter, especially from breaking bad news. However, if the reporter's EMPLOYERS decide to fire the reporter, that's completely legal (assuming no govt coercion)
Assuming that PJ still has their marks' pictures and phone #'s on their site, while at the same time making money from pushing merchandise. I think each and every mark who's posted on PJ might legally have a claim to ANY monies made for every day their information stays up and available for public review.
Come to think of it, Has ANYBODY asked to examine and audit X. von Irk's finances? Any entity wishing to be designated for "non-profit" status from the IRS must make their financial records available upon demand.
Have X. von Irk's "nonprofit" websites had their finances THOROUGHLY and INDEPENDENTLY verified? By which agency/authority? How were the #'s crunched and checked out?
X.von Irk's finances with "non-profit" status-that might be interesting reading

Chris said: "X.von Irk's finances with "non-profit" status-that might be interesting reading"

As I've stated before, PJ is not non-profit organization, or any other form of sanctioned, government-filed business entity of any type. They are no more than a cyber reality - a private, personal website that's an extension of Xavier's hate mongering:
In his own words:

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Channel/9643/frameplay.html
Topic: "Why do we demonize anger"

"Controlled anger is constructive, and hate has a place. Sure, we're all told by the oprahs of the world that all of this is bad, and i'm sure many of you believe that these things are bad, but one thing got left out of the "feel good" equation.

Both of these are natural emotions and reactions. Hate is just as needed as love. Without hate, what would love be? Without the dark, what is the light? it's commonplace, annoying, you start to beg for the dark, after a while. Hate can be very constructive. Those that hate rapists, drunk drivers, et al are responsible for the crackdown on those crimes. Allowing your hate to bubble up, and break out relieves stress, and in the end, makes one more peaceful, as opposed to smiling, grinning, and bearing. Just a release of controlled hate now can curb violent uncontrolled hate later. Those that don't do this repress it, and end up having to go to a shrink to find out the root of their stress, wasting more money on "whores of the mind".

[ Specific page: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Channel/9643/angry10p.html ]

From the home page, http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Channel/9643/angry.html
... check out his "The Truth about God" -
"Now, i'm not endorsing "satanism" because there really is no such thing, a satanist is just an atheist who want's attention. this site is more about lampooning, refuting, and just plain pissin' on the myth of god."

Always willing to give the PJ site another chance to redeem itself, I decided to look for any evidence that an official agency of some sort - legal, medical, social services, etc. is supporting their efforts. Heck, even just a link on their front page would impress me.

I found under 'friends' of PJ this site:

CPIU (Counter Pedophilia Investigative Unit). It sports a catchy 15 second video showing black & white images of sad looking kids with the animated text "help fight online pedophiles" and "help fight child pornography", followed by an FBI'ish looking logo.

When digging a little deeper to try and find if there is anything more to it, I checked the meta tags (internet HTML page information) which is not directly visible to the casual viewer,

Here it indicates:
"A taskforce of counter pedophilia experts working with law enforcement agents with one goal in mind: To stop pedophilia and child pornography."
and for the purposes of snapping up search engine hits -
"Pedophilia, CPIU, Pedophile, Paedophile, Rape, Molestor, Molester, Molestation, Child, Children, Child Pornography, Counter Pedophilia Investigative Unit, Seth Pack, Michael Seth Pack, Jess Jackson, Scott Lamcyzik, Rafael Nunez, Jared Zucker, Steven Lamer, Ronan O. Kane, LOC, Legends of Chaos"

Legends of Chaos, eh? More on that below.

That's about the size of it. The so-called "site" is a single page. No other information. No other links. The page then switches you over to "Michael Jackson's Official Website on Sony Music" which is promoting his latest CD. The video promo there plays a few seconds of one of his songs where he repeats "one more chance for love, one more chance for love, one more chance for love".

Does anyone else see the irony here?

Now about this mysterious LOC: A little more searching landed me on a site that states: "Legends of Chaos is a non-profit organisation founded in 88' to prevent Pedophiles on the internet, and Child Pornography holding a foothold on the internet. And recently even decided to begin fighting terrorism.". However, that site recommends books such as "Easy to Learn with Hacker's Blackbook". That site wants to be found via search engines by the keywords: "security, hack, hacking, hotmail, icq, hacker, microsoft, secure, linux, unix, root, files, phreak, phreaker, advisores, windows, nt". Site description appears as: "A site dedicated to computer security offering lots of interesting services and tool for both security profesionals [sic] and people interested in security."

Yet another site that says one thing but is in fact another.
Now back yo your regularly scheduled programming.

I found the perverted justice website last Friday and located a local pervert who chatted with what he thought was a 13 year old boy a few months ago. I tracked him down at his place of work and met with the owner of the business. The owners jaw dropped when I showed him a print out of the chat log. He called the perv into the office and fired him. The perv turned out to be a registered sex offender who had anal sex with an 11-year-old boy a few years back. He served time but just can’t quit being a child molester. It was such a great feeling to watch the perv squirm and lose his job. God I love my job. : )

And fanatics wonder why everyone else thinks they're insane.
I doubt you'll love your job as much when the PJ hacks have the law grab them by their scrawny little necks. BTW-Kid Crimes Det.-You might want to stop gloating long enough to give some thought as to whether the individual you claim to have gotten fired, is now bearing a grduge for you. How did you find out about "anal sex with an 11 year-old boy?" Because if it's not posted publicly, but on a database limited to law enforcement, and if you're NOT a legally licensed police officer, detective or anyone else in this capacity, then you might have broken some federal laws.
Of course, what's something missing from the cop wanna-be, but never-could? Any mention of an arrest based on his info. If K.C.D. has enough time to meddle in affairs best left to the REAL professionals, then I'm sure you won't mind taking a polygraph test, just to make sure that you're not the kind of sicko who would actually molest kids. I mean, if you role-play like this for hours at a time I think there's a much better than-even chance that you present more of a threat to children than ANY of the marks PJ trolls for. That's the perfect word for the PJ crew-TROLLS.
K.C.D.-enjoy your punk power now, because the slugs at PJ don't see the salt that's coming their way.
KCD, you might SERIOUSLY consider seeing a psychiatrist. You seem to get a perverse sexual thrill over getting someone fired.
And you're supposed to be one of the GOOD guys? Yeah, just like Ted Bundy.
KCD-May you run into the justice you so richly deserve. As one headline at a parody site put it, "People like Limbaugh should go to jail, says Limbaugh"
Lord save us from saviors the like of KCD, PJ, Mr. & Mrs. Xavier von Irk.
ps
KCD-just a friendly word here-Are you psychic? If not, then you might want to reconsider your policy of showing up at someone else's workplace to get them fired. You might think your "pure heart" and "Best of Intentions" are protection enough, but you never know how one of your marks is going to deal with getting fired. You know, if someone's got easy access to a gun or weapon.
Seriously, as someone who WAS molested starting at 6 years, LEAVE THE POLICE AND DETECTIVE WORK TO THE REAL POLICE AND DETECTIVES.
Have you ever stopped to consider that, if you're telling the truth, and the guy you got fired WAS an actual molester, that by losing his job, you've increased the chances that he'll do it again. Remember-no arrest mentioned? Is the fired employee under anyone's DIRECT supervision? If not, and they've cut and run, then please explain how putting children at risk is worth the momentary enjoyment you found in another's pain.

how could anyone find out that the guy had anal sex with an 11 yr old boy? i thought that those kind of things were kept completely confidential for the childs sake? the only people who would have any sort of access to that would be law enforcement, but then.... if it was law enforcement that knew that, wouldnt they have arrested the man instead of just having him fired? something seems fishy about that to me....

Before we jump to any conclusions, I'm going to call 'Kid_crimes_Det's bluff.
He's trying to do what PJ'ers do best - bragging about things that have not happened. But just incase you're not just a troll - congratulations. Charter 3-day member and already well assimilated in the PJ sect of witch-hunters

I don't know of any case where PJ has busted someone who has had a past record "registered sex offender". I think that would be big news. First of all, to borrow another blog's favorite phrase "Link! or STFU!" (shut the fuck up). That means, you supply a link reference to the alleged "bust", his screen ID on Yahoo, and any evidence on PJ's followup forum that you've had anything to do with anything.

Secondly, how do you claim the guy "just can't quit being a child molester". Who exactly did he try to molest?
Thirdly, what was the cause if dismissal from his employment? Why exactly did the owner of the business jaw drop? The chat log you presented ties this individual to the alleged registered sex offender exactly how? The chat log identifies the employee exactly how? As a registered sex offender having served his sentence and being employed (ex-employed), he was under a controlled environment, integrating into society. How is it you can override the legal system, supplement punishment and be instrumental in his job loss?

I'd say what you've done, because you're a little dweeb PJ cultist, is the following:

1) Made his (former) employer libel for wrongful dismissal damages.
2) Made slanderous accusations by using unauthenticated chat log you obtained from unaccredited sources to substantiate your claim.
3) Leave a potential risk to the community in a very unstable position - increasing risk.
4) Because you chose to thumb your nose at law enforcement, took it upon yourself as a personal vendetta and waving slanderous make-believe chat logs around, the individual will not be charged with anything.

What was your ID on PJ again? Your age? Name? I shall need those items when the "accused" and his attorney contacts us. Seems you were stalking an individual with intent to defame/libel/slander, a premeditated malicious attack. We shall need to reference the police report that you surely filed in the course of your actions against this individual.

Damages - The claimant's reputation is vindicated by the amount of damages he or she is awarded. A successful claimant cannot force the defendant to publish a correction or an apology. A jury usually decides the award of damages in defamation cases. Special damages compensate the claimant for actual financial loss. General damages compensate the claimant for the damage to his or her reputation. General damages can take the form of compensatory, aggravated and exemplary damages. Exemplary - or punitive - damages can be awarded where the defendant publishes the defamatory matter because the prospects of material advantage to him or her outweigh the prospects of material loss.

I find it kind of funny that PJ Buster keeps posting his rantings on this site, rather than one of his own. Kind of says a lot about how little influence he actually wields.

Well said, PJ Buster. I would like to just add that no matter how unhappy it makes anyone, once a person has served their time in jail for any crime (including murder), they have paid their debt to society. There is nothing we can do about this. But due to Perverted-Justice (and that is exactly what it is, justice that has been tainted/perverted), this guy does not get a second chance. Now, if he was/is a danger to children, then I am sure he has gotten away from it, gotten rid of any evidence, porn, etc. and now the cops can not catch him for anything. Nice Job- you and those at PJ have just left someone that they accuse of being a child molester run without the fear of getting caught, because now the cops can not use ANYTHING that PJ has gotten.
So, job well done-- you have made yourself feel important, you have saved the world from a "bad guy", and now you can sleep soundly tonight.
Good Job :-(

Cthulhu,
PJ Buster is not out seeking "influence" (like the egotistical group of PeeJ'ers) but rather he is pointing out the flaws of their system, hoping they can do the right thing and use LEGAL tactics, and work WITH the law in order to stop those who prey on children, instead of using illegal, unethical, immoral tactics to see how many lives they can ruin.
So PJ Buster is not seeking to influence, but rather attempting to educate those who fall under the spell of PeeJ (Like the Charles Manson groupies from decades ago).
Hope that helps to clarify things for you.

Is it just me, or did you just compare PJ to the Manson family?

Hey 'Cthulhu', I find this blog is a place to air either side. This blog is open to public input, unlike PJ's. PJ claims to be the court of public opinion. Their fearless leader with his iron fisted control over everything that gets published there seems to contradict that goal. In short, PJ is an X-boy worship site. Mine is open to criticism on the feedback guest-book or Yahoo Group. If the general populace does not want to sully themselves by registering with PJ, filling their browser cache with pedophilia laden text and having funny things done with tracking cookies and IP logging, then this is the only place they can safely learn of what goes on there.

Cthulhu,
no, it is just you. I compared the PeeJ staff as Charles Manson, and their "groupies" as the Charles Manson groupies of decades ago.
I am glad I was able to clarify that for you.

Real Activist:
I feel so sad that you're talking down to me like that. For you see, my self-esteem is entirely based on what anonymous people on the Internet think of me. Any further mockery might just push me over the edge. I'm so very, very fragile. And just for the record, I'm not a contributor to PJ, and I don't post on their forums. I do, however, find the "efforts" of PJ Buster and yourself to be highly entertaining. You've both put so much time and energy into your little crusade, and yet you're accomplishing so little. Oh well. It's your life, and you're free to waste it.

Cthulhu,
I was not trying to talk down to you. I was trying to be kind and courteous. Unfortunately you do not know how to return that favor. What we are trying to accomplish is to ensure that nobody gets killed due to the foolishnes of PeeJ.
Let me explain a very valid point.
PeeJ is accusing people of being pedophiles and "wanna-be-pedophiles". Unfortunately, they did not use their dictionary. The ones that PJ deal with, are not pedophiles, or even “wanna-be-pedophiles” but rather are interested in Ephebophilia, also known as hebephilia (is the sexual attraction of an adult to adolescents.). Pedophilia is the sexual attraction of an adult to prepubescent children. So they are "mislabeling" people. And as I told someone else recently, I am not entirely “anti-PJ” because I understand that they are using a knee jerk reaction to online predators, and not researching laws, and techniques to educating others of the online dangers. They are
uneducated about the right ways to HELP authorities, and not just go off “half cocked”. So I can understand why they are doing what they are, but am outraged by their techniques and their clear violation of people’s rights and the laws, that they expect everyone else to uphold.
We will all see, when those at PeeJ either end up with a ton of lawsuits, or end up behind bars for clear violations of the law. And I guarantee they are being closely watched (if not investigated) by authorities as we type these messages. Because the REAL law can not stand back and NOT do anything, especially when they see laws being broken, and people's rights being violated.
Anyway, have a good night.

You're right, I can't return the favor. I just don't consider you worthy of kindness or courtesy. I think you and your new buddy PJ Buster are absolutely insane. Get a life, dude.

It's refreshing to see people bickering over absolutely nothing again. And thank you to everyone for making this the greatest perverted bitch-slap contest in blog history.

You all make me feel so perfectly normal and contented.

"I just don't consider you worthy of kindness or courtesy."
Actually, regarding courtesy or kindness, Worth, on the part of the recipient,can't factor into it.
Courtesy and kindness extend from the more-powerful to the less so. Courtesy and kindness carry NO expectation of reciprocity from their target. No social gain is expected from one who has been helped.
If some social gain can be achieved from helping others, then it's not a courtesy or a kindness to extend the helping hand. It's a favor at that point, with an expectation of some future benefit.
Cthulu-I'm a Lovecraft fan too-I got into his stories my first semester at college. For non-Lovecraft readers, Cthulu referred to an incredibly old, powerful and corrupt group of fantastical beings and gods. It's ironic you used a Lovecraft term, as what's one of the biggest myths concerning Lovecraft? The Necronomicon-the book of the dead-allegedly written on human skin in parchment form. Lovecraft wrote of the book in such vivid detail, that many people believe that this book, or a copy of it, really exists. It doesn't, it's all a figment of Lovecraft's strange and awesome imagination.
Which brings us back to PJ-they claim they're making a difference, but what's that based on? Not one repeat sexual offender has been caught through their efforts-That's vital, as most molesters and pedophiles have a long, established record of sexual behavior towards children. It's NOT something that someone just starts doing out of the blue. Now, maybe a FEW of their busts fit the sudden-molester profile, but OVER 600 cases, compiled from chat rooms around the country, and NOT A SINGLE REPEAT OFFENDER BEEN ENSNARED by the real-cop wanna-be's at PJ? (it's starting to look like the PJ claims of busting sickos are a lot like Saddam's WMD's non-existent.Look at the transcripts on the PJ website-no one knows what the PJ trolls said to entice their marks to move to a private chat room. The PJ site DOES NOT have their chat logs and any and all photo and/or text messages available for an independent audit and verification. The only thing the world knows about these marks is what the hacks at PJ put up on their site. And considering that there's all sorts of nasty types (skinheads) who just love-up this site's chat rooms, They may not be the folks best suited to be fearless child crusaders.
The fact is, the claims of "good" done by the PJ hacks are just as imaginary as the Necronomicon. Try as one may, just wishing will NEVER win a righteous battle.

Thanks for that. That was a really worthwhile use of your time.

Cthulhu said:

"Thanks for that. That was a really worthwhile use of your time."

Apparently not since you keep coming back for more. In all honesty, your trolling is in reality acting as a foil for others to put out a well reasoned argument. Keep up the "good" work.

-Decipher

Decipher:
You crack me up, man.
And in other news...it looks like one of those creeps involved with PJ has finally been arrested!

http://www.thetimesherald.com/news/stories/
20040323/localnews/131437.html

Cthulhu,
Thank you for that link. It will be interesting to see where this case goes, because the chat logs posted are edited (to include snide remarks, etc.) so the defense could argue that ALOT of it was altered, not to mention the entrapment aspects, etc.
I think that there is more to the story that is not told in that article. NO PROSECUTOR in his right mind would file charges based on the methods/tactics used by perverted-justice. It just is too sloppy, and to self rightous and any good defense attorney could poke a billion holes into it.
I really do appreciate your posting of that link though, and I am assuming that the person on trial will have a chance to have his defense cross examine the PJ'er who did the 'bust'. Otherwise, he can not face his accuser.
This could really set a presidence as to any other cases that may come up due to PJ.
Good work linking that. Thanks again!!

"You crack me up, man"

Huzzah!

-Decipher

It's remarkable just how the PJ'ers who post here are able to produce commentary that's so banal (their juvenile mediocrity is more amusing in the souped up environment of their forums--here it's just pathetic).

The fact of the matter is that a few fanatics have decided to use one of society's most explosive issues, entrap people, convict them based on little or no evidence, whip their followers up into hysterics and then set out to destroy lives--and not just their "busts" but parents, friends, co-workers anyone who might be even remotely connected. It is one of the most sordid--and un-American--groups I've ever come across.

I understand the comparison with the Manson family--both are the dark underbelly of this country--but the Manson family was at least more courageous. They didn't hide behind assumed names and try to do damage just by pounding out missives on their cheap little laptops. The PJ crowd, in addition to being malevolent, are cowards.

The kind of injustice practice by PJ can't be sustained--in fact, it seems to me the site is really slowing down. There have been very few new postings since last Wednesday--some older "busts" were reposted while others were simply right of responses--and the next big media busts don't seem to be happening.

As suggested earlier, the downfall of PJ will be a classic case of overreaching.

So I was wasting time trying to act human? Oh, boo-hoo, how will I ever be able to sleep again, knowing the mighty Cthulu hates being treated with courtesy or kindness?
Cthulu-how sad and pathetic your life must be, if ALL YOU CAN DO is blindly follow YOUR god, Xavier von Irk-what is it about using REAL names for you and the fellow Trolls that you hate so much? Oh, that's right-it's being held to the same standards as those you insist on for everybody else.
But hey, Cthulu (what, you're too lazy to think of a handle NOT created by someone else?) if you want to look up to a bunch of sexually depraved adults who spend every minute of their lives role-playing as teen nymphos, who also get love and adoration from the kkk lovers out there (see the google search of the PJ chat rooms, for an especially nasty little troll named Massa Blackadder-nothing like a bunch of ranting racists to show YOU what side your loyalties belong to), then I guess PJ is full of your kinds of folks.
Poor Cthulu-doesn't it just suck when the lowly rabble, like the PJ shredders, won't blindly follow their social betters, and instead actually make these angels of light try to PROVE their allegations?
Your ignorance shows what's great about this country. You can make a complete jackass of yourself, and not get locked up by the govt.
And I guess that's the saddest thing of all Cthulu-your willingness to become one of Xavier von Irk's Ass-Kissing Cult Zombies. I mean, you online id shows you've read Lovecraft before (or at least heard of his books-Intellignce is something you Seem to have at least a passing acquaintance with. So, why don't you think for yourself? I know that's a very scary idea, but you really should give it a try. otherwise you end up like the classic bully's accomplice, a sad, twisted type unable of doing ANYTHING that might antagonize his mental master, desperately seeking the least little crumb of attention to boost your self-esteem.
Maybe I'm too harsh-Cthulu-show me how wrong I am-Go into the PJ forums, use your real name, and tell them why what they're doing actually HARMS kids, as opposed to helping them. I mean, the PJ crew is all angels and light, surely NO ONE there would suggest or do anything violent. And surely, because they're "good people", nobosy from PJ would ever put themselves in a stupid situation-you know, if your mark popping by for a media bust has a gun and an attitude that he's not going to prison. And I'm also sure that NO ONE at the PJ site has ANY sex-related arrests/convictions involving children of any age. What, this group of emotionally stunted car wrecks acting inappropriately.
On second reflection Cthulu-you're not to be feared-not a wanna-be lackey so desperate to make points with the cult, so much as you are to be pitied.
I really do pity you, Cthulu. At some point, you'll know in your heart that the idea of PJ as the good guys is as false as the cult of Cthulu-not a shred of evidence to support either.
I think it's obvious which of the PJ factions (pro/anti) really gives a damn about people-it's the group that tells interested people not to take just their word for it, but also encourages others to check out competing evidence and claims. This is the side the anti-PJ folks are on. I guess we know which side that leaves you on Cthulu.
I still pity you Cthulu

If PJ falls apart, all pedophiles, wannabe pedophiles, and anti-PJers are welcome to hang out here anytime.

The Stink Zone is a safe place to be yourself, or someone else. We love all people, pathetic vigilantes and helpless perverts included.

BTW Cthulu
The guilty verdict you mentioned-It'll get knocked down on the first appeal, especially as there's nothing backing it up except an obviously doctored chat log, a chat log there's NO independent confirmation about. This controversy will burn itself out the same way the whole Intergenerational-satanic-cults-molesting-and-torturing-kids-at-day-care-centers thing did. All those verdicts are now being overturned, or people are being set free before serving most of their time. Why? Because there has NEVER been a documented case of these allegations having ANY evidence or factual basis to back up these claims.
Does the McMartin Preschool Case ring a bell anyone?
Of course, when people are released from prison, and it turns out there was NO basis for it, then it's left to the taxpayers to bail out the ethics-challenged prosecutors for their ineptitude.
Hey Cthulu-if the conviction IS overturned, will both the Prosecutor AND PJ reimburse the county for any damages they'll be responsible for in this case? Sorry, that whole pesky "having the same standards for everybody" thing raised its head again. I know how it taxes the poor little minds of the PJ trolls

Eric, it's been so long since I'd seen a post from you (great job as moderator), that, seeing your name on a post makes me think of the best line (said by multiple characters) in
"Escape from New York"
"Snake Plissken? I thought you were dead." Thank God for the 1st Amendment, especially at a time when more people are becoming fearful of speaking out against the govt (The Dixie Chicks, Howard Stern, etc) I'm too old and angryed-up to shut up at this point in my life

I'm glad all you folks are such devoted fan of mine. I get a real kick out of the fact that you've all gotten so riled up over a few petty, insulting comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. And now you've gone and sunk to my level...

"I'm glad all you folks are such devoted fan of mine."

Huzzah!

-Decipher

Just make an effort to raise the level of the discourse a bit--if you're going to try to ruin people's lives you should at least try to be able to pull off an intelligent dialogue.

The difference being that most of us with brains know how to lift ourselves above the muck and slime you so willingly inhale, yet refuse to leave.
But again, if YOU wish to publicly admire emotionally immature racists who delight in their own perversions, that's your choice.
Just like standing up to a bunch of fascist-loving scumbag hypocrites who are FAR worse than anyone they condemn is my choice.
I think the most telling fact about you, Cthulu-is your handle. Doesn't naming yourself after a God show just the slightest touch of ego? Yes-it also can indicate that your life is such a wreck, that the ONLY control you feel you have in your life is the ability to give yourself a grandiose nickname. Or, maybe you're just too lazy to waste this energy on yourself.
How sad for you Cthulu-all your intelligence wasted on the likes of X. von Irk and the other book-burning goons at PJ. Myself, I hate bullies, goons and Carrie Nation wanna-be's. The only thing bullies understand is a good, stiff crack across their mealy little mouths. Perhaps instead of genuflecting more at X's feet, you'd do better to check out his rantings at the Angry German website..Again, if Xavier is one of the good guys, then the terrorists have already won.

Damn, that's such a dead-on analysis of my sad, twisted psyche. I think it's time I confess. I'm just a big attention-whore. My parents didn't hug me enough when I was a child. So now the only happiness in my pathetic, pointless life, is going online so I can be insulted. Can you help me, Chris? Can you show me a better way to live my life? I'm so terribly lonely. Please, won't you be my friend?

Can we get back to the issue at hand? About that arrest Cthulhu spoke of...

Ah the Raymond Dooley case.
Jan 23/04 busted
Feb 6/04 arrested
Mar 22/04 pleased innocent during arraignment & pretrial hearing
remans in county jail on $10,000 bond
Yahoo ID Yahoo IM - atonomous2000
This is the first case where a PJ contributor (Jager) has had to reveal his identity as Jason Delaney. I guess PJ sacrificed one of their own to prove a point of working WITH police for a change. Jager is a relative newcomer (first bust Jan/04). PJ is 2 years in operation, over 600 "busts". One sacrificial lamb. The Times Herald today Mar 23/04 says man pleaded innocent. We'll see if it will all be worth it. 23 more PJ anonymous contributors to go.

Jason's profile, 'lil_rachel_mi' - His profile says:
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Hobbies: I love older men! Please IM me if you are into younger women.
Latest News: When chatting, I love to role play as a naughty teen, but in reality I am actually a 22 yo model. I swear on the grave of my grandmother that I am really an adult!
Favorite Quote: "Jager is a pervert!"
That's telling,

atonomous2000 (Raymond) (11:23:58 PM): do you have any other pics?
Yet there was no dialog about having been sent previous pics. We must assume the profile itself held a pic of a 14-yo. It certainly doesn't contain anything
resembling a 14-yo now: http://profiles.yahoo.com/lil_rachel_mi

10:29 PM
Our Anne AKA irisheyes, the compassionate health-care worker has this to say in the followup forum:
Jan 27/04 "Tonight I decided to give him a call of course Daddy Dearest answered. He also told me he will believe nothing until he can sit face to face with someone from this organization. I explained why that is impossible and he said "then nothing happened". I told him he is enabling his son (he told me to shut my big mouth hahahah)and that I don't care what he believes I know the truth and I will inform all of his neighbors and have flyers put up. He told me his son has some issues and I better not rock the apple cart or I'll regret it. OOOOOOO I told him threats will get you nowhere and I'll make sure everyone finds out. At this point he started yelling at me I was yelling at him at the same time. I hung the phone up before it got out of hand.
His dad seems to want to keep everything quiet. Let's make sure e toss the apple cart over. I'm gonna get fliers done. Does anyone live in that area that would be willing to post them????PLEASE"

A list of eight (8) neighbors names, addresses, and phone numbers are posted.

'I'm Your Huckleberry' Jan 27/04 "I have to say that it's pretty funny that Dan the Dad wants to meet face-2-face with someone to 'prove' the organization exists. Like we keep a store front open in Port Huron just for their local pedos. What world is he living in? What does he mean, 'entitled to exist'? What does that mean? "

'atlfalconsgirl' (Kim) Jan 27/04 "ok, I will mail a flyer out to all 49 neighbors tomorrow am - does anyone have a flyer I could use as an example of what all I should put on there?" -- This person, Kim, another 'goth' person is from Atlanta Georgia but lives in Norcross Ga and is going to mail out 49 accusatory notes to strangers in Port Huron Michigan.

'irisheyes' Jan 28/04 "Thanks so much for sending flyers, his dad really made me angry. He's hell-bent on protecting his son regardless of what he's done. So I guess it's time to tip the apple cart. HAHAHAHA"

Followup stopped after Jan 28, except for one stray comment added by:
'Sean' Mar 8/04 "Hey, I'm new here, i heard that Ray got busted for this stuff but it was all rumors, i assumed he was in jail or something... anyway. me and my friends almost feel bad about how much we made fun of him in high school."

Chris... thanks for the feedback. This page actually does a decent job of keeping the focus on issues, as opposed to bickering and getting personal and stupid.

As far as free speech, this page is featherweight compared to the crips and bloods page. And much like PJ, it was very hard to tell who was for real, and who wasn't.

http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000034.html

If there are any doubts about the cult of personality set up at PJ, check out this embarrasing diatrabe from Angry German:

http://www.superpatriot.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=108159

He reproduces an e-mail from a Philadelphia resident concerned about the media bust bringing suspected "pedophiles" into his neighborhood (even though they aren't proven pedophiles or even proven pedophile wanabees--whatever the fuck that is).

AG begins his post by saying, "I am starting to hate these people and their inability to comprehend simple things." There's that great sense of compassion--the kind of folks that really care so much about children.

In responding to this very reasonable sounding neighbor AG writes, "Stuff your pretty "America" speech, grandstander. What we want is for people to be aware of the problem of internet pedophiles. We want America to be aware of the dark subculture that has affected so many children already. Do you think because you are affluent that you are immune? I could point out so many children from middle to upper-class neighborhoods who have left their homes and run off with older men after meeting online. Are you so vapid? Are you so foolish to think it couldn't happen there because your town is affluent? What hubris! What gall! "

AG also says to his correspondent "You self-righteous egotist." A fine turn of phrase to which I would have to say, "Mirror!"

After his ugly e-mail to the neighbor, AG turns to pumping up his little troops: "Do not get down about our efforts. Do not sit and let the panderers like Bill influence your thinking. They choose to sit while you choose to act. They choose to think it could not happen in their neighborhood while you go into regional chatrooms and sicken yourselves by how many want to have sex with you. You know the problem, they avoid the problem. In a way, they are the problem.

Thanks for being apart of the solution, and thanks for volunteering with the largest and most extensive anti-groomer website online. You, the faithful volunteers, are the good."

The delusional thinking is quite remarkable. Even more entertaining is the fact that PJ'ers fall over themselves afterwards in praise of their silly leader.

Sometimes the English language just doesn't do the job--the word that comes to my mind is "Tragique."

You're right Cthulu-I'm a complete loser with a very petty ego, and the only satisfaction I get is at someone else's expense. And furthermore, my psychoanalysis was brilliantly humbled by your sneers and asides. Never before has the world seen such a first-rate display of sarcasm, and to think it was at my expense. Oh how the slings of your rapier-like wit inflict outrageous fortunes on one so clearly in the presence of your overwhelming intellect.
Cthulu-your magnificence is so stunning, that you must be an actual angel sent from heaven to slum here on earth. No mere mortal could have had such wondrous sarcasm flow from their pen.
To think that the mighty Cthulu would deign to visit this lowly mortal, and further waste precious energy to mock my insignificance, is both inspiring and pathetic.
If you REALLY believe that you're a better person than those against PJ, then why waste your brilliance on us? You know-the Nietzsche/"Zarathustra" concept-What honor is there in defeating a weaker enemy?
And if that's the case, then again, what does it say about you? You're so much smarter than everyone else, and yet you can't find a more productive way to spend your time besides insulting others?
So I may be petty, but it's still telling that you NEVER discuss PJ, just those who can back up their PJ bashing-Hey, I don't blame you for not talking about the issues, there's no way to do it in a positive way for PJ)
Looking forward to your next bash everyone but never discuss PJ observations Cthulu. Especially as all the store's copies of "the Weekly World News" are sold out.

All right BEHAVE.... STOP Fighting already!!!! geeperz... The issue is p.j. and their wasteful efforts to clean up america. Why dont they go scoop up some shit for a living. at least more would be accomplished then. im annoyed with how p.j. interferes with the police and how can anyone be so rude to someone who is concerned that they brought ''pedophiles'' into their neighborhood. I certainly wouldnt be too pleased. i got horrible neighbors to start with. To add to that is just down right ridiculous. Why must people come into this forum and whine about how they got insulted? get a life. If ya dont like what people gotta say here. go away. If ya like to be harassed. go talk to p.j. workers.... while they're pretending to be 14 yrs old. They can harass you for the next 20 years. Geeeeeeeez.. Get over it Cthulu... Why even waste your time.???? Do you love it so much? Are you a pedophile yourself and do you get excited when people talk about pedophilia?? GO AWAY.

sincerely,
CRANKY ME

PJ Buster, You better get in touch with Dooley's lawyer and the prosecutor and let him know what PJ did is illegal. I'm sure once your on the case the charges will be dropped immediately.

Quote from Chris-
"BTW Cthulu
The guilty verdict you mentioned-It'll get knocked down on the first appeal, especially as there's nothing backing it up except an obviously doctored chat log, a chat log there's NO independent confirmation about."

Are you a lawyer? Your almost as knowledgeable as PJ Buster. If you two teamed up I'm sure you'd have