I think I have a response to your post, but give me a minute to let it marinate. I'll be back with something to say.

Check this out...then let's talk.

When Hip Hop Plays God

By Stephanie Mwandishi Gadlin

August 11, 2003

The 17th verse in the second chapter of Corinthians reminds the reader that one should not “peddle the word of God for profit.” Not only does this apply to the super preachers who can pack stadiums quicker than the L.A. Lakers during play off season, but could also apply to secular artists who use theological references to either shock, subdue or perplex their listeners. A recent essay by writer Lynne d Johnson for Pop Matters.Com, a trendy ezine that reports on U.S. cultural issues, attempted to draw religious parallels between three Hip Hop icons and the word of God.

In “Hip Hop’s Holy Trinity,” Johnson’s August 8 article cleverly crowns Andre Young, Marshall Mathers and Curtis Jackson, (nee’ Dr. Dre, Eminem and 50 Cent), as hip hop’s “Father, the Son and Holy Ghost.” Using biblical scripture and drawing false parallel to jazz legend John Coletrane’s album of the same name, the writer says: “If we so believe in the scriptures, then the Holy Ghost or spirit of God is to inspire the new prophets as he inspired the prophets of the old law. …In following this train of thought, envision 50 Cent as hip hop’s holy ghost, both inspiring his mentor and provoking rappers, both old and new school, to step up to the game.”

What game? When did 50 Cent or any other rap artist become a prophet of God? Could she really be saying that aspiring rappers who seek similar commercial success, must now create new ways denigrate Black culture and struggle; promote consumerism over community; confuse real power with status; and ultimately challenge the authority of God?

“Whether you believe in the inkling of holiness emanating from 50 Cent or not,” Ms. Johnson writes, “God is no stranger to him.” I would be remiss if I didn’t remind you that it is Ms. Johnson, and not the artists, who make this biblical comparison. Thus my observation is more directed at this new cultural marketing madness designed to disguise vulgarity and self-hatred as some sort of God-inspired religious message for today’s rap music consumers. Obviously, self-destruction and depravation as gone as far as it can. Today, Madison Avenue must press old dung into new CDs and convince us it has meaning. Those of us who attempt to operate in the framework of righteous living should reject this madness. And conscious thinkers inside Hip Hop must at least be willing to speak against such foolishness, while examining the larger issues.

The overall predominant pseudo-religious theme in today’s rap music is Christianity. It seems to have replaced popular Islamic doctrine in the late ‘80s and early 1990s. Lyricists such as DMX, Dead Prez, Leaders of a New School, Brand Nubian, Nas, Common and the Black Eyed Peas, among many others, have all effectively used religious symbolism in their music. Though the video left must to be desired, even Snoop Dogg’s “Murder Was the Case,” made the universal plea for deliverance as he pondered his fate while on trial.

Trite lyrics and elementary rhyme style aside, Jackson’s recent meteoric sales unquestionably were driven less by divine intervention than by the two influential men who help propel his career to a broader audience. It can be equally argued that the over the top party cut, “Up in the Club” helped boost sales of the forthcoming CD with strategic brilliance. Prior to “Get Rich’s” release, the song seemingly rotated more than 30 times a day on Chicago urban contemporary radio for weeks on end. The accompanying “Bionic Man” themed video and other clever music marketing initiatives helped seal the album’s place in music history. In another time, the album could have very well been considered hot garbage.

Rapping on “Up in the Club,” Johnson’s “Holy Ghost,” promotes drug consumption, threatens a liquor-bottle beat down; and offers to have unprotected, random sex with any interested female. Once again, “the father,” Dr. Dre, has managed to mesmerize listeners with hypnotic rhythms that encourage you to tune out the absurdity of the lyrics being offered and to move your behinds to the bass-line groove instead. The “son,” Eminem, has successfully pimped his own “great white hope” marketing success to further help prostitute urban Black culture and folklore. He wants us to believe that 50 Cent is hip hop’s proverbial savior. Not only has he been persecuted and crucified, by his riotous living, he has seemingly risen from the dead---as marketers were quick to tell all of America how the young rapper was shot five times and lived to tell about it. Talk about a new resurrection.

The rest of the album is no better, as Jackson mixes tired, uncreative, over-used tales of ghetto strife, gun battles, drug dealing, and gangster pimping with religious themes about his soul, heaven, hell, reincarnation and what God really thinks about it all. His marketers have gone out of their way to make us believe that Jackson is somehow the reincarnation of both Tupac Shakur and Christopher Wallace, two prolific rappers who flirted with both religious and secular themes before their untimely deaths six months apart.

To compare Jackson’s rantings on “Many Men,” “Patiently Waiting,” and “Gotta Make it to Heaven,” to Shakur’s, “Only God Can Judge Me,” “So Many Tears,” and the more complex “Blasphemy” is like comparing Jimmy Walker’s weekly portrayal of J.J. Evans on Good Times to Sidney Poitier’s performance in “Lilies of the Field.” It is even safe to say that Wallace never got the chance to fully explore his religious beliefs, though his “Life After Death” double CD and cover art offered a glimpse as how he viewed his own mortality.

Hip Hop professor and religious scholar Michael Eric Dyson writes in Between God and Gangsta Rap: “Our best future will only be realized if we learn to listen and to speak to one another, and to those outside our culture." He went on to write that it is easy to condemn rappers who give in to profanity and nihilism, but “The much more difficult task is to find out what conditions cause their anger and hostility."

I’d venture to say Hip Hop has done an exceptional job in defining the problems, and has made no apologies about it. Since the evolution and attack on so-called “gangsta rap,” artists have defended not only their right to express various perversions, but have testified that these real life experiences are designed to illustrate the truth of what really goes on in the streets much like a news reporter on the evening news. While this scapegoating was acceptable a decade ago, isn’t it time we moved on the truth of the matter?

Hell sells! Apparently the mostly young, white and suburban consumer of rap music isn’t all that interested in supporting artists that can express something beyond their own subjugation. Thus some Hip Hop activists have launched various campaigns to push conscious rap sells beyond what can be generated by radio and video play. Which leads one to yet another question: Can music alone save the soul of a generation that often defines itself as “lost, unloved and abandoned?” As young people grapple with their spiritual identity, cultural critics must be mindful not to pimp even the lowest hip hop prostitute. We can condemn and examine the sin, without judging the sinner. In other words don’t kill the messenger---unless he’s holding it down with a semi-automatic complete with hollow points.

Despite the proliferation of police brutality, racial profiling, unemployment, AIDS/HIV, gentrification and an attack on academic freedoms, today’s commercial rap artists appear to be trapped inside a Menace II Society/House Party-type movie stuck on rewind. Does anything inform today’s commercial rap artist beyond expensive liquor, athletic shoes, shiny weapons and gas-guzzling vehicles?

Further, are today’s Black youth to believe beyond the “bling bling” that the occasional lyrical references to Christ, God (Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah), is a hidden spiritual street code waiting for a secret decoder ring? As Chuck D once intoned, “don’t believe the hype.” Biblical scripture is even more specific. “Watch out for false prophets, they come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.” (Matthew 7:15, NIV)

Lastly, call it irony if you like, but it shouldn’t be lost that according to biblical lore Lucifer (Satan) was the super-talented chief musician before being cast out of Heaven. Further, it should be noted that when the lines between secular and spiritual become blurred, the spiritual is no longer really spiritual at all. God’s word is clear. And I would venture to say that if Hip Hop artists are seeking soul salvation, by crying out for spiritual intervention in their music, then shaking your behind, popping uppers and flexing hard bodies in music video isn’t exactly the way to go.

Some people will be quick to denounce my observations as religious zealotry. They will undoubtedly say that the Bible itself is full of tales of blood and gore, death and destruction, sexual immorality and persecution and therefore rap music is no different. However, those biblical lessons aren’t the end of the story. Holy Scripture is not only designed to present a historical, theological and geographical understanding of God (whom is to be worshiped) and the so-called devil (who is to be rebuked), but is first and foremost designed for readers to make a choice between good and evil.

“Most great music, they say, is God inspired,” Ms. Johnson asserts. However is it a stretch of the imagination to believe God-inspired music seeks to draw people closer to Him and not you’re nearest Mercedes dealer?

Two years ago, Christianity Today, a leading religious magazine, published an extensive article that explored Christianity and rap music: “Hip-hop is not easy to pigeonhole,” the authors wrote. “It's not just about a style of music but a lifestyle. In addition to rap and other urban sounds, it encompasses fashion, language, art, and attitude….”

The article further quotes a Harvard graduate turned youth minister as saying “A key for effectively connecting with the hip-hop generation understands their values,” he told the magazine. "Hip-hop music promotes a brutal honesty and sometimes vulgar description about the blight of urban areas, the confusion and exasperation of many youth, and the inability of social institutions, including the church, to deal honestly with the needs of youth."

In this regard, how does the Hip Hop generation move beyond playing God, and begin to honestly deal with the spiritual issues that confront its generation? How can we inspire new and seasoned artists to infuse their tales of death, destruction and courageous bravado with faith, love, understanding, truth and compassion? Let us teach Hip Hop to love again. Is there no balm in hip hop? Indeed there is.

Stephanie Mwandishi Gadlin is an award-winning writer and journalist who resides in Chicago. She can be reached at StephGadlin@aol.com

aight I think i'm ready to comment...

first and foremost i thank you for thinking of me and this piece.

that coltrane, alice coltrane, sun ra, pharoah sanders and that ilk were the most spiritual of jazzists is no question. what i'm inferrring here, is that today's music is about popularity, it's about consumerism...i make this correlation to a holy trinity within the context of american popular culture. i even say some would neither consider them either holy or godly. but at the same time i can judge no man. if any of these cats believes he is the "pied piper" or "the messiah" who am i to question. at the same time, as a critic, i can hold them to task for the content of their material. yet i am not so certain that the content is not realistic for many who live lives similar to them.

c'mon we know what 'Trane was all about. but we also know that many of these jazz cats were so drugged up and that the drugs became thier own personal demons and at the same time their god --- their source of inspiration. i do not claim that the messages being delivered by these new world rap knee grows is spiritual at all, but it is about survival. and out there on the streets, survival is spirituality.

thug rap, the flavor of the month? nah. even the politcal, the party and bullshit, all of that, was thug. it was hardcore. it simply depends on the trajectory or even your approach to hip hop as a whole, or even rap, whatever side of the game you stand on. i would never deny herc, bam, and flash their credit. i'm from the bronx, and i am from those days. but in the days of capitalism and consumerism...this is it man. this is it. i'm not saying it's the best thing for the movement of black folks into the future...but this is where we stand. but it is not always i n' i who is making this movement take control, but the controllers themselves are in the control booth pushing the buttons. who is predominantly buying this music nowadays? and is this music really black, spiritual, soulical, to begin with? if it speaks of pain...it could very well be.

truly it is a marketing network that builds these artists nowadays. you ain't said a word on this. i agree hands down. but the truth is, if masses of people feel this is the word...then it is the word. even jay z and nas spit thug when they want to flex. i'm not at all saying they are culturally intellectual in any way, but that they have tapped into some unrest within the people. this is what the people want...even if it is the only thing that's being fed. but it isn't. i went to a show in nyc called black august where dead prez had such a magnificient response. the people want the revolutionary thug too.

if the people, down and out, and those in suburbia, found something to cling to, there is a sense of spirituality within the text ... no matter how benign, banal, whatever the text may be. it's battle scars. it's anger. it's a black man's rage. this is how i see 50...a black man full of rage who does have some idea of who god is and what god can do for him...but yet...

see this is such a difficult discussion to have in such a space. if i were to ever see you face to face, we could get real with this b/c i could go on and on here and delve into spiritual vs soulical... and that how one man perceives god is not necessarily how another perceives god.

though these cats may not speak to and for you....someone...definitely someone...whether marketed to or not...feels this is the voice of the voiceless. everybody really and truly wants to be a gangsta' and not a wanksta' everyone wants to buck the system.

man i'm losing my train of thought, but i hope you get my drift. i am also probably not being as articulate about this as i could be...but i hope you get my drift. i don't disagree with you at all, but i see room for your point of view within the context of the map i've placed before you.

at the end of the day it's darwinian...the fittest survive...and they also stay alive.

Thanks lynne, yeah let's make a point to have this conversation in person some day.

Growing up, I listened to a wide variety of music...lots of different radio stations... my parents music. I went to concerts with friends and family. In short, I was exposed to just about everything out there.

Then why -- if I have so many options and an open mind -- do I always come back to hip hop?

The reason why I call hip hop "home" is because it speaks to me. And if I had only one voice to express my feelings... it would definitely be hip hop. Regardless of its spiritual merits or positive benefit to society, the reason I listen to hip hop is because it speaks to me. And through hip hop I see my dreams manifested. Regardless of our materialism, nihilism, and ignorance... even our most downtrodden have a special place in their heart for the music that brings us together.

If the prophets of old could see our artistic prowess they would step back in awe. We may not have mastered our content or direction, but we have the tools to do something much greater than instilling coded morality through far-fetched didacticisms. I read the Bible. I am a spiritual man. But nothing gets my hairs standing on end like a good reggae or hip hop song.

What I appreciate most in Lynne's article is that it acknowledges that our spirituality is an ongoing project. If there is a God in the traditional sense, it is safe to say he hasn't been taking the last 2000 years off. This god is still a work in progress. This god has new stories to tell.

Where Stephanie misses the point, it seems, is in her desire for adherence to some sort of fixed doctrine. I would say the materialism, nihilism, etc are sympotomatic of a growing disdain for traditional notions of morality, which has largely been promulgated by religion.

In reading over all the comments here, it seems we are having two separate conversations about hip hop and spirituality. On one hand rappers seem about as unholy as ever these days. On the other hand, we all still face a struggle to survive. And we are spiritual beings who have no choice but to follow a spiritual path.

In my own personal life, I reconcile the contradictions by seeing spirituality as much as a weapon and instrument of power, as it is a tool for enlightenment and harmony. A fully developed sense of spirituality embraces the good AND the bad.

"There's a mission in the music it seems"
            -Chace Infinite

In our struggle to survive, hip hop is a chance to step back from the struggle and see where we are as a people. And judging from contemporary hip hop, it seems we are barely able to get past the struggle. Could these be more desperate times than any we have seen? Is the dream unfulfilled more painful than the struggle?

In 50 Cent, I see a dream fulfilled. Yet it is an underdeveloped and malformed one at best. Yet 50 Cent strikes a chord with people. And this is where I think we can find the spiritual element: between 50 Cent and his fans. On paper, 50 Cent is just another gangster/pimp/thug. But in those sing-song choruses, his power is evident.

Yes, 50 Cent has been chosen. Kids of all colors and creeds have chosen 50 Cent as their creative ambassador. To me 50 Cent appeals to the longing of people for the chaos and strife embodied by the life of a prototypical black renegade. We are wild spiritual creatures and pop culture provides the best antidote to the hegemonic practices of industrial capitalism.

Anyway, I should take a break here and continue this later. My basic point is that I think I agree with Lynne if we are saying that you gotta read between the lines to see the spirituality. And that it isn't about some simplistic "good vs. bad" view of the world. But I do question whether 50 Cent really understands his role in all this. To me, a spiritual adept takes charge of his own direction, above all else. 50 Cent has said almost nothing that deviates from his forebearers in thug music.

As Lynne pointed out, we all have different concepts of what "spirituality" is specifically. And that is what make spirituality spirituality. To some it is morals and miracles. To others it is simply tears and tingles.

Thanks again, Lynne.

I definitely think we're on the same page....:-)

I respect only three hip-hop artists today Nas, Shyne, and 50-cent. Reviewing their music individually reveals they all truly represent hip-hop to its street, only the strong survive, nature. Each one of these artists own a spiritual perspective on life. I believe if a human being is born in an environment and raised in that environment then that is what they know. From thorough research on my behalf 50 and Shyne were born and raised in street viloence without parental guidance or love and survived by slanging drugs. It is dangerous to say that if they were not raised with the knowldege that swearing and sex out of marriage and obeying lusts were the valid things to do then they would be spriritually strong individuals. Eventhough the spiritual content of their music may be made for the sole purpose of enhancement of record sales they intentially or unintentially disposed Christian truths of God and His will of grace and contiually forgiveness of sins.

DIA: is hip hop dead?
==================

I'd say Hip Hop is dead but not for the West Coast or white boy winning
an
Oscar reasons that Dawkins stated in his misinformed article. I think
it was
killed by it's very
own people because they were so willing to sell it for profit and
discourage
it's audience and the future. It reduced itself to boasting bullying and
the
pig and whistle
poppyshow assembled in a theatre of hate. Hip Hop and it's MC's and all
the
other clown show performers became so entirely unlikable and
discouraging it
was just a matter of
time before it suffered a cruel and welcomed passing. The flunkies of
Hip Hop
refused to move forward because they simply wanted the profits and were
willing to kill each
other for it -- and I'm not talking about the scapegoats of the major
labels.
The so called "underground" scene was not any better and sometimes even
more
nastier than the
major label bosie slaves with their organ grinders called DJ's and
beatmakers. Hip Hop was just the ultimate Afro-American shuffle along
and
the only reason why (what was
once fam) are making such a big holleration about the whole thing
passing is
that, like a tired ol slave's death (a yes the slave metaphor), it is
massa
losing his plowbwoy
in the mud of the field (this time the wasteland of faux ghetto streets
and
suburbs of America) and Black folk just don't know what'll get them
scrill
now.

Maybe the ending of 8 Mile should offer a suggestion to those who wonder
what
happened and where to go -- just walk away from the mess and practice
your
skills and recite
them to and for people who just want to love music (all kinds of music),
words and audio manipulation. Not for the pimpin machine of our souls
that
North American Black
people have become and have taken
every aspect of our creativity to the depths of meanness and
manipulations
for a buck. It was a music which could have offered liberation but only
taught opressed people how
to oppress further and to ensure there was no feedback make sure it was
your
own people you victimized. We allowed it to lose control over it's own
destiny and made the most
horrific period in Black American music. Where not one thing may be
encouraged or loved because it must be copywrited for the shuffle along
show
to get major bucks the ho
market of America -- our kids, our sound, our language, our dance, our
literature our minds -- every aspect is watched over like a
concentration
camp guard by our own and
are ready to be sniped if it challenges the static quo of the flow sheet
and
profit margin.

The best of the best in all our arts will rise once there is no money to
made
from it anymore.
Then the artists and skill men will be doing it for love it. The works
will
be a way to express
ourselves, again ? most likely in poverty (thanks to our own greed of
the
recent past). And so the art forms will allow tru new voices, ideas and
styles and dump the bullies
and jocks who Ho Hopped all over the thing claiming it like a gow bwai
claims
the sandbox. Hip Hop will become another style of music with influences
and
not some industry
ho'in way of life that it never was.

The music is still their (sometimes appearing under another name, most
of it
recited and played away from "locked down" venues with bad vibes and
hungry
talons)) because
it's not about money, egos, labels, nastiness, race, chatter, threats,
angry
raging peoples using struggle to separate each one from each to advance
a
pyramid scam and a
corner a market.
It's just music and poetry and art and the way an individual naively
chooses
to express
themselves for and about people who care.

peace

Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite
An author in North America >>

Man, I was going to say something, but reading Lawrence's response has made me think. He's right on alot of his points. I don't even know where to start. I'll just share what I disagreed on from Eric.

Basically spirituality (by itself) is BS. To use your vestigial soul 'tingles' as some experience to justify your arriving at the truth of mankinds purpose is wrong. Do you think the

Almighty gave you tingles so you would become enlightened? It's absurd. I know exactly what you mean, I feel 'tingles' when my brain has been utterly amazed by hearing or seeing something very relevant to my concepts of existence.

But seriously the message of God is to be used for improving mankind, not entertaining it. And since you didn't feel tingles at Church but did at some dancehall, that's quite possibly just a tool of the accursed to extricate you from your attachment with working for righteousness. Did people believe that God made us in sport? Or that our commission by him to set his will on earth would be easy. Or do you think he made this life some kind of ethereal ecstasy theater?

Lastly I got to say that the two of you (eric & Lynne) are pretty misguided. You use the archtype of the fallacious Trinity. And you quote that liar Darwin as references? What is wrong with you two. First off the Trinity has been perplexing Christian 'intellectuals' since the fools invented it and adopted it (by force of Nicae). The Trinity or the Nicaen creed is something human beings should be more advanced than to be caught up in. It's a premise of calculating God's make-up which is intrinsically madness. And you know it. That's like trying to taste dark matter. To understand God to the point of breaking him into categories of physical and sprititual manifestation is wrong and foolish. It is also borderline (or really) polytheism. It's the like the futile estimations made by the formerly monotheistic Hindus, and look where they got!

The invoking of Darwin (the racist) is wrong. You all need to know that Darwin was a racist and he even published his 'findings' on the superiority of races. This misguided 'scientist' didn't even follow the scientific method. To believe in his findings firmly ensconces you in his proof-deprived cult of followers.

It is known fact that Darwin has motivated mosters like Stalin and Hitler to eradicate the 'weaker races'. This thinking is dangerous and is the spawn of the accursed and his followers.

Read this book for proof: The Evolution Deceit by Harun Yahya.

Darwinism is a cult, WAKE UP! There has been no proof of Darwin's 'theories'. There are a whole slew of establihed scientific writers who have successfully refuted/rebuked/remonstrated over Darwin's drivel. Peace.

Nobu...

Since you seem to have a lot of answers... let's throw the ball in your court. You want the mic... fine. My questions to you are these:

Do you believe in anything beyond logical, rational thought processes?

Do you believe our senses can deceive us, for better or worse?

Do you want to be in control of your life at all times?

Would you feel better about life if you knew there was a higher power (something beyond your awareness) helping to guide you along?

Do you believe your life has a purpose, and if so what is that purpose?

Is there an order to the universe, or is everything essentially chaotic?

Do you believe in God? If not, what are your guiding philosophical principles? If you are religious, please tell us your denomination or variation.

What website do you most frequently visit?

Who would you like to see as president of the u.s.a.?

shout outs? f-yous? last words?

Answers to Eric's Questionaire

1. Yes. There are things beyond logical, rational thought processes. I believe in the soul and the unseen beings and worlds/planes of existence.

2. Yes to both. Our senses can deceive us, for better or worse. If you look at the world and see it's design having purpose and by extension a creator, this would show how senses will aid your understanding of the unseen. To simplify the issue like some who say "I believe what my eyes can see", then this is an example of our senses working against us or being interpreted in a limited sense. Things like the finger print, the eye, and the blood cell show purpose of creation not a chaotic, random universe. Like how bees make a hive using a hexogonal building block. How could an insects 'intellect' or random selection pre-dispose it to know that geometric shape is best suited for structure and maintaining their environment. Did other bees try triangles, or dodecahedrons or other shapes first? I doubt it.

3. In some way I do want to be in control of my life at all times? The thing we best control is our choice. We can't control what happens outside of ourselves even near to completely. God's power is ubiquitous, even though he gave us free will, God's will is ever-present.

4. Knowing that there is a higher power does make me feel better about life. If there was no such thing as the justice of God, and no reward/punishment for good/evil when we die, life would seem forlorn and without purpose.

5. I do believe my life has a purpose, and that purpose is to serve my creator by establishing his will first in my own actions and in my consciousness and in my heart, and second to establish his will/power presence on earth.

6. There is there an order to the universe, no, everything is not essentially chaotic. Everything in nature obeys god completely without choice, including the planets, animals, the physical world and the invisible worlds (perhaps Angels also). Man and a few other creations of God (like devils) have free will. Man's will though limited can either maintain the balance set by God or damgage the balance (by God's permission anyway).

7. Yes, I believe in God? I don't have a denomination/variation, I am Muslim.

8. The website I most frequently visit other than email, for learning/entertainment purposes I check out: muslimedia.com/mainpage.htm; thenation.com; metropolis.japantoday.com

Hip Hop sites: stinkzone.com; ohhla.com

9. I don't have a preference for president of the U.S.A unless he's a Muslim or unless he can stop the injustices in the world against all beleaguered and oppressed peoples. I doubt any of the party nominees or otherwise will carry this message to the American people. Besides the elections are a sham anyway, as can be observed from Election 2000 when Bush stole it.

10. shout outs? f-yous? last words?

Nah. Peace to mankind, may we all find guidance and establish justice and peace in this world.

Nobu... big up for sharing your views! I think it's better to just get the main issues on the table. I wasn't sure what you were getting at with your earlier comments.

Considering your latent hostility towards Christianity, I was surprised to find out that you are a Muslim. I'm sure that your strong critical reasoning could just as easily be turned against your own Koranic scriptures. Dietary restrictions are a good example. Treatment of women. etc. Christianity isn't the only flawed religion out there.

For me, the problem is that no two religions can coexist peaceably. Either one is right... or none is right. Islam, at least, builds upon Judaism and Christianity. But to me, the whole notion of organized religion is an oxymoron. Believing that you have captured the "essence" of a spiritual tradition in a book and some rituals is simply misleading.

The problem is that people are so dependent upon institutional guidance that they are unable to explore their own notions of spirituality. People cop out and accept someone else's views wholesale, and usually without the sort of cynicism you have shared here.

The fact that most people follow the religion of their parents and community shows that it is simply a matter of tradition... not truth.

Aye Yo,

Why is everyone arguing about 50 and Em and Dre. If your going to critique Rap-then why not talk about music you really like!

Plus, Hip Hop is just a tag, isn't Nirvana Hip Hop,Blues Master Buddy Guy himself told Kid Rock over some hennesy "you're a bluesman and you don't even know it."

I think of rappers more like blues cats with a new beat. Or jazz cutters. It's all music baby-and music is only so so deep, we need to do the leg work,learn the ancient sciences-do the real yoga and change ourselves-then the music will get better.

B15

I agree with you on a few points, Eric. Yes, people follow tradition over truth many times. But you've got to give your beliefs some credit. If your beliefs make sense to you, (meaning you have studied it thoroughly enough to make such an assertion) then it's not a flaw to agree with what is right, even if it's common to your background.

I don't know what 'organized religion' is. All I know is that Islam is NOT a religion.

It doesn't TELL you what to believe. The Qur'an (If you read it you'll see) unlike the Bible asks the reader/listener to ponder over it's signs, to ponder over the creation of God, to ponder over the character of the Prophets and the linear relationship between them all. The Qur'an says things like "Oh you who believe", meaning you who have CHOSEN to dedicate your will to Me (God) because you believe in My Lordship based on UNDERSTANDING My signs unto you. The Qur'an never says BELIEVE because God says so, or because Muhammad p.b.u.h. says so. Islam is not dogma.

Secondly, Islam is a way of life. Christianity does not hold a complete way for people to live in every facet of life. Nor did Jesus live enough of his life for people to see how to live. Jesus never married, never ran a country, and never had children, so where will Christians turn to for the BEST example on how to live (and many more roles and relatioships of life)? [We believe he will come back from God's protection because he never died and live a natural human life and die] Muslims on the other hand, have a clear example of a statesman/religous leader, a father, and a husband. He lived long enough to show us how to live.

Whether or not Christianity and Islam can coexist peacefully has yet to be seen. Because Christians refuse to be Christians. If they followed what their book says completely, which they will resist due to the current secular cultists, they would find more congruence with the Muslims. Allah tells us in Surah Maidah: verse 82 of the Qur'an (about the REAL Christians) and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

If you are a Christian and have these qualities than we will build a bridge of friendship, respect and common characteristics of brotherhood. And just so you know, dietary 'restrictions' which you'd see as really protections if you weren't so judgemental, skeptical, and 'holier-than-thou' to God's guidance. Is it restrictive when a Mother commands her son to brush his teeth (if he dislikes it)? Is it restrictive to tell someone to not drink and drive? The answer to both is indeed it is, but for a purpose. And purpose (causality), as the Matrix:Reloaded beat to death, is why we humans (in the sense that they are different from animals) do things, not for sensual-gratification, unless you are a slave to yourself, in which case, your 'ilah' or God would be your own whims.

Where in the Qur'an is Allah giving us a poor code for treatment of women? If you knew anything of the time of the people then, you'd see that Muahmmad's (p.b.u.h) efforts to restore women's rights and respect, was a much more difficult struggle and was far more advanced and far preceded the raunchy women's movement of the last century (wow some progress, Muhammad's (pbuh)women's rights movement was 1300 years earlier). He was a man, but due to Allah's guidance, he brought women back into the fold of humanity away from the abuse and objectification of the pagan Arabs, and others of the time.

Why don't people liberate the Catholic nuns from their unfair confinement and covering? Why don't people liberate the Hassidic Jewish women from their 'repressive' head scarf, or the Hindu women from burned alive when her husband dies?

I'll give you this much about MUSLIMS repressing people. It is true that MUSLIMS (not Islam itself) have forced some women who didn't want to practice Islam into wearing the headscarf. This is wrong, I agree. If a women wants to leave the religion (and it is a calamity to Muslims like a typhoon or an earthquake), then she has the right to, as Allah says in the Qur'an that there is no in compulsion in belief.

Please read Yusuf Ali's translation of the meaning of the Qur'an. And read Surah Nisah (The Women) about women's rights, and Surah Al-i-Imran (The Family of Imran) about our revered Jesus (peace and blessings upon him) son of Mary, the Messiah. Lastly I take your judgement of me being hostile to show either your willingness to pander to reactionary minds, or your inability to see that I actually respect Christians (real ones who follow it). I actually had a Catholic friend in high school. My best bud back then. He actually said that he believed in the crucifix and all that stuff, and then like a few years later told me that he didn't even believe in an afterlife! What is the purpose of believing in that mindbending crucifix/original sin with no payoff? After having lost that friend I began exploring Islam further and really learned what a true Christian was and is, and it is close to what a Muslim is. If you read the Gospels as from Barnabus, you'll see many similarities in belief and even in ritual between Muslims and (true)Christians.

Actually if the Christians weren't duped by the liar and self-proclaimed disciple of Jesus named Paul, they too would have a faith built upon previous revelation. But Paul put a stop to all that.

Good luck lying to yourself with all that neo-spirtual nonsense. Let me give you one last argument, and this is especially for you. If you believe that God made the Universe in all it's diversity, and beauty with perfect order and laws which can never be undone (unless by him). Then this lends that God gave the planets and animals, etc. no free will yet they follow exactly the way of life(motion/physics), prescribed by God. Why then after God created man, would he not have a set criterion by which man MUST live by in order to be at PEACE (which really means obedience to God).

Think about it. If the Sun doesn't follow it's pre-set pattern and decides to do something different like get hotter or eject more charged particles, then all life on Earth would cease. Many other strange scenarios would ensue. Man, like the heavanly bodies must live according to God's guidance, unlike the other creation, man has a right to do OTHER than God says, which is why life is so jacked up right now on our little blue planet, because people do bad things (i.e. other than what God mandated). Which is why there will never be 'peace on earth' or 'world peace' until malefic forces are humiiiated and minimized, and all man qwells his own inner chaos with God's order and guidance.

Nobu... Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my questions.

"All I know is that Islam is NOT a religion."

... huh???

***

Let's get one thing on the table here: even if God himself came into my room and told me to do something -- like wear my socks inside out -- I wouldn't necessarily do it. To me, all notions of some sort of God with a personality, who cares about how we silly humans live their lives... is simply absurd. And it is also a little vain, and presumes that we are so important that some Almighty being has made us His primary concern.

I believe people have long mistaken our collective consciousness for the notion of God. To me, the true God is a cold and impersonal force of nature that we can neither comprehend nor effect. But our collective consciousness is shaped and molded by this "god". In other words, we created "God" in an attempt to understand the unknowable. And all major esoteric traditions speak to this reality.

You have mentioned that Islam is not an organized religion, and that the Qu'ran does not explicity tell people how to live their lives. I guess you would say it offers suggestions. Yeah, like Christianity... do the right thing... OR BURN IN HELL!!!

I have no interest in persuading people to do anything except put all religion (organized or not) under instense scrutiny. The nature of religion is almost always to tell people how to think and live their lives.

I am less concerned with what God said, and much more concerned with who, what, or why God is. To me, it is our need for God which creates God. I don't see why a supreme being would have any use for us. The Bible treats the Earth as if it is a zoo, with God as the keeper.

You obviously know a lot about the differences between Islam and Christianity, but the fact that you are stuck on this traditional notion of God means that this discussion is basically over.

I do appreciate your time and I definitely learned a lot of things I didn't know and got some leads for by Torah/Bible/Qu'ran readings. Have you read any Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist texts? I think Buddhism and Taoism are the closest to my own personal views, but it's all different cups of tea, I guess.

Who cares.

What up Eric,

Well the last time I seriously studied anything dealing with Taoism, I was in like 11th grade. But from what I read, Daoism came into serious conflict with Buddhism. If you study Hinduism's books, one or two of them make alot of mention of Muhammad, and other Prophets of God, including Noah, Abraham, and

The prophecy containing Prophet Muhammad by name is found in Prati Sarg Parv III: 3, 3, Verse 5.

Then The translation of Verses 5-27 (Sanskrit text of the Puranas, Prati Sarg Parv III: 3, 3

"A malechha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Mahamad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Mahadev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the 'Panchgavya' and the Ganges water, (i.e. purging him of all sins) offered him the presents of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, 'I make obeisance to thee.' 'O Ye! the pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malechha opponents (idol worshipers, pagans).' 'O Ye! the image of the Most Pious God the biggest Lord, I am a slave to thee, take me as one lying on thy feet.'

"The Malechhas have spoiled the well-known land of the Arabs. Arya Dharma is not to be found in that country. Before also there appeared a misguided fiend whom I had killed [note: e.g., Abraha Al-Ashram, the Abyssinian viceroy of Yemen, who attacked Mecca]; he has now again appeared being sent by a powerful enemy. To show these enemies the right path and to give them guidance the well-known Mahamad (Mohammad), who has been given by me the epithet of Brahma is busy in bringing the Pishachas to the right path. O Raja! You need not go to the land of the foolish Pishachas, you will be purified through my kindness even where you are. At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of a Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of 'Ashwar Parmatma (God, Supreme Spirit), I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat-eaters. My follower will be a man circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution, announcing call for prayer and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. Because of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmans (Muslims). I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nation."

Im at my office now, and gotta go now, but I'll finish later...peace.

Well, I could go on, but I think I've exhausted the issue abit. Later.

I think it very great to do this.

Ain't no such thang as no Holy Hip Hop trinity.
50 cent and the rest of the bustas that spue this venom that they call music are far from being holy. Gangbangin', killin', pimpin', drug dealin', drug usin', jackin'and exploitin'and degradin' women ain't holy. Lynne Johnson needs to come up with a different exaple 4 sho'.

If you wanna talk about Holy Hip Hop you betta be talkin' 'bout sum Sevin, Praya P, RMB, Bruthaz Grimm, Gospel Gangstas, and sum T-Bone.

Year late, but here's my 50 cent. Crossmovement, Lil Raskull, Corey Red, Precise, Flame, Truth, Living Epistles, God Squad, Urban Disciple and BBJ. This is a part of the Holy Hip Hop Community.

of course we cant forget some of the underground peeps.

check it: dynamic twins, Dirt, Ill Seer, Lecrae, Liquid, Manafest, MG! the visionary (dope), ohmega watts, braille, Reconcile, Secta 7, Atom tha Immortal, Sevin, solseekers etc etc. theres a zillion of em, check Sphereofhiphop.com for a complete list.

there are also your secular artists that touch on the spiritual, Zion I being a notable name.

As to 50 cent? he needs jesus. Any one is redemible its just a matter of wanting redemtion.

peace ya'll