i'm so guilty.

Awwwwe don't even get me started on the mindless Guevarism, but sporting such nonsense is a contradiction when basking in the glow of capitalism. The Che icon was only started after his death, by one dictator fuck mind you, and was used as propaganda for the Revolution.

My perspective is a bit biased since I'm Cuban-American, but I'm thinking of a shirt that says "fuck Che." Now that would be trendy.

i'm such a shameless "hipster" - shame, shame on me. lol!

Jimi Hendrix once said, "Once you're dead, you're made for life."

Guevara's romantic ideas of communism led to his failures and eventual downfall.

Man Che guevara will never die. He will always live on in history I dont care what people think about him it's their oppinion and my oppinion is that Che guevara was the best man that steped on earth!!!!

Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

Yo niggaz is that thw way you like to be called?

I think that this bwoy the self-called cuban american must read something else about this man(ernesto) cuz thats a MAN; not the one you´re tryin to be with a pair a baggie pants and things like that... Boy if you´re thinkin about a T with that message, better start thinkin in other one that says... why am i so stupid, why didn´t i realize that i´m a likkle boy that came to the USA because my granpas were fuckin part of that slow killing people system which consisted in givin the people what they never wanted and what they never needed (i´m meaning turnin dem into junkees and men like i think you´re little cubano americano)

may tell you something... im a mexican living in my mexican country or chile and taco city if you´re so ignorant to say that... And let me tell you that... i do not love Cuba, i ADORE it.

It`s no point of view matter, it´s only education...
and if you dont eat education you´re eating nothing but hedonism...

and this life is not about that... there are plenty things more than those you got on your feet

but your oh-so loved country is turning most young people into brainless things...

SO YOU BETTER THINK MY WORDS TWICE BEFORE YOU TELL ME SOMETHING, CUZ I THINK YOURE NOT REALY SURE OF WHAT ARE YOU WRITING

-by the way do you know this piece of a song: IN THE ABUNDANCE OF WATER THE FOOL IS THIRSTY-

i never meant to hurt any body really, that´s my point of view

and i´m really angry about young people saying: che was a stupid when ím sure you don´t even know his complete name.

but then that is you....

Jah love

"My perspective is a bit biased since I'm Cuban-American, but I'm thinking of a shirt that says "fuck Che." Now that would be trendy."

I would bash your fucking face in with a rock so be careful wearing your 'trendy' shirt.

When you take into account that Che was directly responsible for the deaths of 2,500 cubans. And indirectly many more than that. Well yeah, it's easy to say "Fuck Che". Eric, I'll wear that shirt with you.

"It`s no point of view matter, it´s only education...
and if you dont eat education you´re eating nothing but hedonism..."

This is what the so-called "Dready Pickney" wrote and yet, can not even articulate or write English well enough here. He rather be a ignorant street punk spewing diatribes. Che was a pawn in Castro’s government and he left because he was unhappy with the way the Cuban revolution was moving. Mijo, vete pa’carajo y no jodas mas pendejo!

Yous are all arguing about who and what Che Guevera was.. the man is dead. I dont accept the mystification of Che. I know he wasnt a saint but the fact is he fought for something we have never had, and that is our freedom. No one of us in our 'democratic' nations are free, because none of us can see the iron ball in our head. For the lad that would like to wear his trendy shirt, i say to learn some respect for those you cant even begin to understand, and for Dready Pickney, you let off a vibe that your a bit of a homie? i may be wrong but if thats the case than buddy the iron ball in your head quite heavy. And for the last dude Queteimporta: no seas un bastardo, no todos tenemos las mismas opportunidades para hablar el lenguage de los imperialistas. I accept that even i have been guilty of being a pawn of society but through my denial begins some change

Yeah, and all this talk about che stops if one of ya'll hit the fucking lotto. what would you do with the dough? It damn sure won't be blogging with any of us. Pawns of society and imperialism and this bullshit talk. get over it, money will change your minds quickly. And Che would be another t-shirt to buy. Fresh for 2 square, you suckas!!!!!!

Che may have had guts and good intentions, but what Castro's done to Cuba made it so people are floating away on old Buicks. Elian Gonzales's mom died trying to get out of there, as so many do.
You remember Elian? The only illegal alien Pres. Clinton didn't like.

Che is neato dude!!!!!! I'm a suburban but i got urban in me. I'm a cool white radical plus I eat big macs. Any girls looking for a gnarly freckled pale skin leader, holla back

Che was a murderer, its so "cool" to see all this anti-war kids sporting the face of a murderer on their chests... Its so trendy.

i'm writing a paper for my xicano studies class about che and his pop iconization. I don't agree with what's happened to cuba under castro; but i wouldn't go as far as to blame it on marxist idealism. In context and idealistically marxism is a wonderful philosophy; as close as possible to a completely utopian society. The examples of communism that we see in our world today have been manipulated by their countries leaders, and the greediness and narcissism of human nature. Che was part of a revolution to change the world; he wanted equality and he wanted to end capitalism. What makes me upset is the people out there completely selling che out and using him as a means to capitalize. And as for all the people saying "Fuck Che"; why don't you find an educated and less crude way to voice your opinion, maybe then someone would respect it.

uh...you guys are losers, who cares.

see, i gotta say I'd be one of the "trendy" t-shirt wearers, but I can't say I know enough of what I'm talking about to wear anything. ALl I'm wondering is, how can anyone respect a man who's responsible for 2500 deaths? I just don't see how this man can be called anything but a murderer, weather he fought for freedom or not. To make an omellette, you gotta break some eggs...bullshit. The man was responsible for the deaths of innocents, and those people who wear his face on their shirt are responsible for answering to accusations. I'm sure he'd be ashamed to have someone wear his face on a shirt anyway.

all you fucking stupid communists that think che was great should go to hell--coming from another cuban american-- im going to go to skool wearing a joseph stalin shirt. that makes about just as much sense. those of you that are ignorant spare me the revolutionary talk--che was a killer and i have no respect for any dumbass retarded enough to support such a man

let's face it.... every government is in place because of violence... as hard as it is for everyone to admit, its the means to an end. It's really easy for all of us to pretend that the US is a peaceful country, but it's not. Last time I checked the country wasn't bieng run by a bunch of pacifists. It's the nature of man to create conflict; history shows us that. The amusing thing is that now it's so popular to be PC and deny any use of force, but whether you're marxist or conservative or progressive or not maybe people should admit and understand the nature of the world. Violence will not end. PERIOD. Yeah, Che killed people. But guess what? So did George Washington, so did Abraham LIncoln, so did Richard Nixon and so is George Bush. He wasn't the only killer. Maybe some of you need to brush up on your history.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH BITCHES, stop trying to be all liberal or some shit saying that people shouldn't wear the shirt because its wrong. you have no fucking clue; none of us do.

Hey, mr. fag, i agree with you, people should be able to wear whatever they want if that's something they believe in. The problem with the Che shirts is that stupid college kids think they're wearing a shirt that means less than what it really does. Don't judge a person who says that Che is awesome, or one who says that Che is a murdering bastard...those who make the choice have the right to make it. THe problem is with those who don't know what the choices are, and have no idea why they're wearing that shirt. Hipocrites as well, humanitarians should not wear such a shirt. It just doesn't make sense. People should wear the shirt if they truly believe in it and know why they believe in it, not because it's fucking trendy.

fuck all you..Ernesto was MAN, you could never amount to. I wish he was alive to kill all you hating putos. Fidel and Ernesto are not the same man. Ernesto isnt to blame for what Cuba is today. I wear his fuckin shirt, and ill continue to wear it....

Some moron said:
"would bash your fucking face in with a rock so be careful wearing your 'trendy' shirt"

I say:

Why are leftists so violent? Leftists always claim they're the "champions of peace" and "tolerance". Evil hypocrites.

It's damn hilarious that these commies are making capitalism stronger by buying che guevara shirts. Again Evil hypocrites.

Che is in hell get over it!

Damn communist genocide supporters.

none of you seem 2 no wat che stood for. he stood for peace and equality, people had 2 die fr this 2 happen. yourall shouting about something you no nothing about. none of you are free, because your all AMERICAN. "whoa dude its like the fourth of july, independance day n all that. hey lets wtahc friends." ypour all porns in a game of chess.youdon tno this though because your government manipulates your minds, but that isnt hard seen as you all eat doughnuts. just go and die the lot of you. some people see che as a killer, some see him as a hero. i see him as a hero, he stood against people for his rights, none of you will do this, your to scared, che was a freedom fighter. he fought for good. you american twats dont know what your fighting for!!!!! GO EAT DOUGHNUTS

All I can say if for those of you who dont know anything abut him, go to a library and read a book about Marxism, or mabye a Biography? Be informed. And for our friend "RAGE" wear your little shirt and try to bash mt 6'4'' 230lb face in and there might be 2501 deaths people can bitch about. "It is better to die standing than to live on your knees"-Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

This message is directly for CHE. You are a total moron who can't spell let alone concieve of the right to presume that anyone on this page is, by your definition, "American". Considering I live in Montreal, I think I have the right to say that your dumb ass, whether he lives in the US or Montreal or Instanbul, has no right to presume that any of the people on this page with opinions about Che--their OWN opinions--has anything to do with where they're from. Considering that's besides the initial point, VIVA you rock, at least somebody's a little educated, except your size has ntohing to do with it. Why can't everyone else let the subject lie at people have the right to their own opinions about Che? Whether he was a murderer or a revolutionary? People died at his hands but many lived as well. It's your choice to decide whether or not you thought it was worth it. As for the INITIAL POINT, people should not wear his face on their shirts unless they have a good reason to back it up.

If it is better to die standing than to live on your knees then why did Che die begging for his life? He told those who captured him that he was worth more alive than he was dead! That's right I'm another Cuban-American! People are still litterally dying to get away from the legacy that he left in Cuba. Just talk to a balsero who was lucky enough to make it to the U.S. ...If you can find one!

Dukes: Bush didn't kill anyone to get in office nor to keep his presidency, nor have any American presidents since George Washington. Yes, revolutions cost lives - but a revolution engaged in by willing parties to fight over a cause to bring freedom and a revolution that installs a more brutal regime and that requires brutality in order to keep power are very different.

Azucena: No, Fidel and Che are not the same - Che was Fidel's executioner.

i wouldn't go as far as to blame it on marxist idealism. In context and idealistically marxism is a wonderful philosophy; as close as possible to a completely utopian society. The examples of communism that we see in our world today have been manipulated by their countries leaders, and the greediness and narcissism of human nature.

Yeah, except that every attempt at communism has turned out that way - Cuba perhaps the least, most were more bloody and worse. The problem with Utopian schemes is that they are just that, Utopian, not possible. You can call it greed, the part of human nature that makes it impossible, but giving it some thought one can see that in fact communism is not the best of all worlds and the drive to create for oneself and one's family is not bad after all. Communism is the Utopian idea: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". But why should I work very hard because I have ability, so that you can rest and relax because you have none? It is quite easy to see how this is quickly manipulated by those who don't want to work. Revolutionary Marxism is very east to manipulate - that is why it is always "hijacked" by the brutal power loving Stalin's of the world. Communism assumes that the law, the collective, can make choices and all the people will follow - because its a collective of the people. But really that is just a description of a totalitarian government, nothing more.
What we learned in our European past and based this country on is that government should first: do no harm. It is the idea of a limited government, just the opposite of communism- the idea that government does not always know best and should be limited such that it does no evil. It is only there to protect the basic rights of the people, nothing more. Those rights existed before government - they were not granted by government. In a free society prople forget this at times and would build up a government that no longer respects our rights or start a revolution to overthrow the wonderful limited government we have and install a dictatorship (of the proletariat or any other), completely missing what we have. People forget that freedom is our right but not every government allows it, we must be careful to protect it. Just as poverty is not a problem that we have created - it is wealth we have created and in so doing have almost eliminated the poverty that always existed before, and which will exist again if we wipe out capitalism and freedom which have created it.

Che: I will have a donut, thank you.

che guevara is a legend! yeah he killed ppl but so have other legendary ppl that have been respected even though they executed ppl!

leave the poor guy 2 rest in peace!!

r.i.p kurt and guevara

"che_ism has been subsumed by the culture he hated" let us remember, Doc. CHE, declared war on america,his spirit leaves on, in OSAMA!

fuck you gentleman,as long as the suffering continues, the struggle shall not be pampered.

buddha

a few things i'd like to present.....

i believe that the quote about preferring to die standing rather than living on your knees was from Zapata not che.

yes che killed many people. a "murderer" if you will. He was also a GUERILLA who helped fidel topple the batista dictorship through VIOLENT revolution. what? did you think that a coup was a pacifist action which doesn't require bloody battles to achieve a certain goal?

also, the failures of communism isn't necessarily marxism. i think it has more to do with Leninism. considering that most of these so called failures that we model were leninist revolutions. ofcouse the Soviet union. also the people's republic of China: if you ever studied Maoism, you will see that the basic priniciples are pretty much leninist, same with cuba, north korea, etc... ...... LENINIST!!! meaning VANGUARD PARTY!!! aka DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIET IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE EQUALITY!!!! THESE ARE ALL MILITARISTIC POLICE STATES UNDER THE DICTATORSHIP OF A VANGUARD PARTY/DICTATOR. no, marx and engels never advocated dictorship or orwellian police states while proposing their communist manifesto. in fact, they hated despotism and despised soldiers. leninism has cause communism to fail. more democratic marxist approaches like the ones overthrown by the CIA in latin america may have worked if they weren't overthrown. but nobody will ever know for sure.

to clarify my position, i am not a communist nor am i a capitalist. i see an equal ammount of flaws in both systems (considering capitalism's unequal distribution of wealth, bloody imperialism, poverty, plutocracy etc.....).
nor am i saying that any of you are idiots for having your opinions. you have your right. respect mine in return.

but i thought i'd just present a few viewpoints.

I'm an ausralian living in what you yanks would probably call a small country town but i just want to make the point that you Americans are coming off as a bunch of facist arseholes and i think this web site proves the rest of the worlds view. Fucking check yourself. I'm sure you guys will be a fallen super power in 20 years like russia is now so i'll just wait for that day.

I think the word is exceptionally "righteous".

Isn't it beautiful to find a website that -- far from discouraging a one-sided rhetorical rant-fest -- actually brings those of opposing views together with such splendid results.

FYI, I'm the one who runs tings round here (the custodian). Don't pee on "our" fascist rainbow pride parade! "We" don't tolerate intolerance of intolerance!

Try tolerating intolerance... and see how wonderful it is. If we all tolerate intolerance together, just imagine what a beautiful world this would be!

So far I think that Kurt is the only one on this page who has made any well
thought out arguments. It's very easy to run around and say "Che's a killer" or
"Che's the man" without knowing what you're talking about. Sure the guerrillas
killed their fair share of Cuban soldiers during the revolution, but that's what
they were--soldiers. I doubt that any of the "Che's a murderer" people on this
board would say the same thing about George W. Bush who is responsible for
thousands upon thousands of Iraqi deaths, both civilian and soldiers. And you
might say, "well we got rid of Saddam, an evil dictator," well guess what, Che
and the revolution ousted Batista, an evil dictator. And they had the support of
the campesinos, who knew the guerrillas were fighting for them, which is more
than we can say about the war in Iraq. The point is, the people here that are
villifying Che all have made very illogical or ad hominem arguments against him,
none of which make any real sense or hold any merit. He is regarded as a
revolutionary hero in Cuba the same way Americans regard George Washington
or Thomas Jefferson, both of whom are also responsible for thousands of deaths
(revolutionary war, slavery ring a bell?). So before you make anymore ridiculous
statements, please, either read a book, or at least think a little bit before you
type. I proudly wear my Che shirt because I actually know and agree with what
he and Fidel and the other revolutionaries fought for. I suggest before any of
you make any more statements, either in support or disagreement of Che, you
learn about the man and make an informed response.

P.S. Che didn't leave Cuba because he had a falling out with Fidel, he left
because he had bigger ideas for a continental democratic-socialist revolution
(again, read a book.)

First of all, I wanna say big up to everyone posting on this page.

OK, how about this for an argument...

Che helped replace the violent and repressive US-backed Batista dictatorship, with the repressive Soviet-backed Castro dictatorship.

Any significant change there?

Saying violence is an inevitable part of progressive social change is like saying ignorance is essential to enlightenment.

I would argue that none of these people mentioned -- Lenin, Mao, Marx, Engels, Che, Castro, etc -- have made any significant contribution to improving the quality of life of people around the world.

Back to the issue of violence...

Telling people to commit violence in order to achieve social justice is no different than telling people they will go to heaven for suicide bombing.

In my opinion, refraining from violence is a hell of a lot more brave and effective at bringing about peace. After all, violence is the main thing we should be fighting against here. And by violence, I include a lot of things: poverty, illness, discrimination, eating animals, etc.

Isn't the ultimate goal of all political activism to bring about peace and prosperity? I would argue that you can't have peace without prosperity, nor prosperity without peace.

Ultimately, the goal should be to change how people view the world and live their lives as INDIVIDUALS and not violently forcing others to change their behavior.

It's about lifestyle!!

The real power is not in telling other people how to live, but leading by example. By committing acts of violence, you are only reinforcing the notion that violence is an effective means means to an end... when in fact it is merely a dead end.

When you refrain from violence, you break the cycle.

Oh, and I'm a libertarian.

Badnarik for president.

I respect Che Guevara not as a symbol of Communism... but as a symbol of resistence to oppression. The same way I respect Ghandi, MLK, and Thomas Paine.

To my knowledge, NONE of these people you mentioned ever picked up a gun and shot someone. Only Paine advocated violence.

Both Ghandi and MLK were advocates of non-violence as a means of revolutionary social change.

Please get your facts straight: Che Guevara was a guerrilla soldier. Ghandi and MLK were true revolutionaries. Also, none of these people you mention would EVER support a military dictatorship, let alone MULTIPLE military dictatorships (as Che did).

A major social chamge, like the complete overhaul of a system, is only attainable through violence. Opressive regimes do not respond to words, only bullets. Ghandi had beautiful ideas and he certainly attracted the world's attention to plight of his people, but England would never have left India had there not bee an armed resistance.
Che Guevara died with blood on his hands, no doubt, but he fought for the people who had no voice. He was tired of the masses having nothing while a select few had so much. Its true the Cuban revolution did not come into fruition, but Che can not be faulted for that. Guevara did not join Castro inorder to lead Cuba. His role was soley to overthrow the despotic Batista government, and when that was accomplished he moved on and took part in other revolutions. The current situation in Cuba, which despite its problems is a hell of a lot better than it was pre revolution, is due to both Castro not adapting to the times and the ridiculous embargo.
Ernesto Che Guevara did not seek glory or power, he only wanted the best for the people. For that reason alone El Che should be remembered alongside the Mandelas and MLKs of the world.

Che and MLK are so far at the opposite ends of the political and spiritual spectrum that it begs the question of whether you have really done your history homework, comrade.

Um, last time I checked, Cuba hadn't had a democratic election in like 50 years. I hope that isn't your best example of a country where violence has improved the situation. Cuba simply swapped dictatorships. Don't believe the hype.

If you still think violence is key to ending violence, please give me specific examples of a few countries that have became less violent primarily through the use violence.

The time for generalizations is over. Let's see what you got.

To answer your question:
Mexico:
The Mexican Revolution of 1910
The Zapatista Uprising (things arent perfect yet, but atleast some progress is being made in Chiapas)

The USA:
The American Revolution

Hiati:
the Slave Revolt, 1791 (ended slavery in Hiati)

South Africa:
the Township Revolts

Now for a little rebuttal:
I did not say the Cuban revolution was succesful. As a matter of fact i stated quite the opposite.
"It's true the Cuban revolution did not come into fruition".
I merely stated that Che was not to blame for the failures of the revolution. With that said, I think it is naive to say Cuba is not better off today than it was 50 years ago. Cubans are provided with one of the best health care and educational systems in the world, despite being subjected to an inhuman trade embargo. Cuba may not be a democracy (which makes the revolution a failure)but it a million times better off now than it was under Batista. Pre Castro Cuba was a giant brothel for rich Americans. Its people starved, had no access to school or hospitals. Atleast today no one goes hungry or dies of curable diseases.

OK... thanks Martin.

I think we need to distinguish between simple regime change and the long slow crawl toward representative, bureaucratic democracy. Cuba -- and I'll give you that -- seems to buck the trend by making sure its populace is at least living slightly above subsistence (although we shouldn't overlook the fact that it is still a brutal dictatorship).

Again, Cuba does buck the trend -- a little. As for these other examples, let me get into that.

MEXICO

To this day, Mexico remains a poor and corrupt country which is controlled very heavily by transnational corporate and narco trade. The vast majority of Mexicans have seen only minor improvements in their standard of living, in spite of the fact that the amount of economic activity in Mexico (read: how hard people work) has risen dramatically. In other words, Mexicans work ten times harder and receive only twice as much pay. Also, it really wasn't the revolution that changed things in Mexico, it was primarily its relationship with the U.S. and its relatively stable -- although certainly corrupt -- bureaucratic government.

HAITI

Haiti may be the best example of a country the has suffered the most from its revolution. Haiti's revolution was the purest sort of revolution possible: the bottom became the top. Unfortunately, this created an unstable atmosphere that has made it difficult to maintain the sort of export-based economy that is necessary for a small island nation such as Haiti. The current situation in Haiti shows how hard it is to break the cycle of violence once it devolves into the sort of anarchy and chaos that often accompanies "revolution".

SOUTH AFRICA

South Africa doesn't really fit the model of violent change in my opinion. For years and years there was violence and no regime change and no end of apartheid. Afrikaners resisted all forms of external and internal pressure for decades. But like the Soviet Bloc... some things just don't make sense and eventually people realize that you shouldn't stop people from moving freely around their own country. My understanding is that poverty, violence, and disease is still rampant and barely improved in South Africa, primarily because of the government's violent and oppressive practices.

UNITED STATES

The United States is maybe the finest example of a country that had both a revolution and became a stable democracy, yet still managed to enslave people, colonize other countries, and nearly implode during its most bloody conflict, the Civil War. America is perhaps the best argument that ONLY a pacifist lifestyle can make a country more peaceful. On paper we have all the ingredients for a well-adjusted nation: revolution, prosperity, and national unity in the face of major religious, economic, and ethnic diversity. And yet, yet, yet... we have incarcerate, kill, and maim both our own people and those of other countries with a zeal that suggests something much more than simply economic or political hardship. And its not just the government that's in on it... it's also quite often citizen against citizen. America, quite simply, has a culture of indiscriminate violence. Yes, we a relatively prosperous and "stable" country, yet the violence persists.

My point is simply this: our problem is not revolution, or lack of it. Our problem is not economic prosperity (although that IS a prerequisite). Our problem is simply that we treat each other like slaughterhouse animals.

It may be idealistic and unrealistic. But if you want to end the violence... all you gotta do is stop being violent. It really is that simple.

ps. oh, and thanks for the nice, civil discussion. it's good to see someone stay on point.

I do think the idea that the only way to end violence is to stop being violent is idealistic. An opressive government will become more and more opressive if the populance allows it to. No dictator has ever thought to himself, "Now that they're letting me do whatever I want, I am going to give them more rights." In extreme circumstances the people need to rise up. Che Guevara traveled around the world and helped people who had enough of being treated like animals organize revolutions. He didn't gain anything from this. He was not wealthy as a result, he never held an official position in any government. He could have stayed in Cuba and had as much control as Fidel. He chose to keep fighting for those who had nothing. I think that is an honorable thing.

Che leveled the playing field. Instead of there being an upper class, a middle class, and a lower class; the classes have been dissolved and no man has more than any other.... unless you are mid to high member of the party. ALL MEN ARE EQUAL... equally poor. Oh and if you go to church don't expect to be allowed to work. Oh and your ration card reduced. All the great Cuban doctors with their lack of medical equipment have yet to come up with a cure for starvation. Cuba was not as backwards as it is now. There was a heavy infusion of money from abroad bringing up the economy. Now severely lacking. If you notice the few cars that are still in operation are from the era of Batista. I'm not saying things are hunky-dory but they were a helluva lot better than they are now. Che is a murder: a murder who believed very strongly in harnessing the power of hate and of dehumanizing his enemies. "Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy."- Che. He was a doctor who healed few but killed many. I am a Cuban-American. I personally have heard accounts of his atrocities against man. I personally know the man who executed him. It is difficult to relate to a man who preached such idealistic values but continually dragged his feet through the mud and relished doing it. A man whose only living legacy is the Cuban revolution where so many risk there lives to escape and more bear the terrible burden that he is partially responsible for having brought it upon them. I am being very sincere and direct. I am attempting to not let my emotions take hold of me. It is very difficult to speak about a man who has killed members of your family because they desired to hold onto what little they had. It is very difficult to speak about a man who has sent your family away with nothing but the clothes on their backs because they were sick of seeing men, women, and children machine-gunned down in the street for participating in a church recessional. If he truly believed in the things the revolution quotes him with saying then he would have not allowed such things to have occurred. This is not a man who should be admired but rather as a notorious hypocrite who engaged in acts of pure savagery to achieve ends which are merely as bad as his means.

What's funny is that a shirt has inspired so much discussion. A t-shirt.

I think that its all good to think of Che in the abstract as we all do. You can learn a lot about the complexities of revolutionary ideology and practice. Furthermore, you can see how history fights to see a person a certain way.

When you get into a debate regarding the intelligence of the people wearing Che shirts, you turn into the stupid person. I have seen people with Mayhem t-shirts, and members of that band have murdered people, and they write songs about soullessness, carnage and the end of the world. Compared to them, Che was at least intellectually rigorous.
Che's "attrocities" were part of an integral politics. It's highlighted by the commentator on this site who says that he'll smash the face of a person wearing the Che shirt. Some people really care about the implications of this man.
Yet, Cuba's social structure and the fight that Che put up is so far from anything one can do in the USA that it's hard to consider the shirt anything more than an icon to the abstract, like a cross hanging from someone's neck. So if you are mad at people for making pointless or poorly considered icons of people, then you would do good to take down exactly how people lionize Che and see if you can see how parallel his treatment is to that of that older prophet: Jesus of Nazareth.
Of course you might also find that people dress to cause a stir. So its really funny how well we all play into this particular stir. Isn't it idiotic how people wear shirts with the playboy bunny emblem on it?

Now you're in the swing of things! It's OK to get up in people's face and harass them for being "American Idiots" as Green Day might call them. At least a Playboy bunny stands for indiscriminate acts of hedonism. Che stands for indiscriminate "enemy" killing.

As they used to say... we all in the same gang my peoples!

The next time you see a person wearing a Che shirt, sticker, or keychain... please approach them. Tell them the reason why they are wearing the t-shirt is not to show allegiance with all the righteous struggling poor people around the world. The t-shirt is a red flag to the true revolutionary who will kindly -- or not so kindly -- inform them that a true revolutionary doesn't pretend to be anything. Unless you got the t-shirt at a thrift store or someone gave it to you for free... you have no business wearing it... unless of course you stand for killing people.

And no, i wouldn't tear the shirt off your grill. I would simply add you to the list of ignorant people massing on the sidewalks of this capitalist dystopia. How ironic that your pretend socialist revolutionary shirt is actually the hallmark of capitalist ignorance.

You know what? I live in America, go to college, and wear my Che shirt with raging pride.

Everyone on this board who bashes the Che supporters have basically two arguments: we shouldn't wear the shirts because Che was evil or a killer or whatever, or we shouldn't wear the shirts because we live in America and the act of living here contradicts what Che supported.

The first argument is really the only one with any validity and I will break them both down.

If you feel that Che was an evil person, I can respect that opinion. I don't agree with it, but I can at least respect it. After all, Che did take part in executions and he did kill people, but he did this all in combat. He was not a bloodthirsty man, he didn't kill for fun, he killed because he was at war. I doubt that many of you would claim that the tens of thousands of INNOCENT lives we have taken from Iraq or Vietnam or Korea or any other war were done out of evilness. They are "casualties" of war. I don't think it's right, or any killing at all is right for that matter, but Che never killed because he was evil. In fact, if you were to read up on Che's actions in Cuba, he turned countless numbers of prisoners over to the Red Cross in order to save their lives. But regardless, if you think that Che is evil for killing people, none of which were innocent civilians by the way, while at war, I'll respect that opinion and your objection to my wearing the shirt.

The second argument against my wearing Che is absolutely ridiculous, and I see that Eric has been saying this over and over again: we live in America which Che despised so we shouldn't wear the shirt because it goes against his philosophy. Absolutely ridiculuos. First of all, not that it should even make a difference, my shirt was given to me so there. Second of all, does my being born in America mean that I am only allowed to agree with American philosophy? I am 19 years old right now, I started reading about Che when I was 15, liked him by the time I was 16, does that mean at age 16 I should have immediately packed up my stuff, left my family and moved to Cuba? Of course not, and anyone who says otherwise isn't being rational. I can still support socialist or Communist views while living in America because no one can control what you think or who you support. And believe me, I do plan on leaving the United States, but when the time is right. Everyone's got to play with the cards they're dealt, and I'm playing mine. I'll go to college, get an education, and I'll make much more of an impact than I could have if I ran to Cuba when I was 16. After all, did anyone condemn blacks in South Africa during apartheid simply because they wanted something other than the government was offering? Of course not, and even though I am not being oppressed as they were, I still want something other than what the government is offering because the oppressed are out there. And no one can call me a hypocrit simply because of where I was born. It doesn't work that way. My staying here for the time being is exactly what Che would have wanted, education was second to none with him. After all, he was a doctor and he trained many of his soldiers and campesinos in the mountains how to read and write, a privelige not offered to them by their government. He loved to learn and to read, so do I, he was a fan of Marxist and socialist literature, so am I, he fought for the rights of the oppressed that couldn't fight for themselves, so will I. Now you tell me how what I am doing here contradicts his ideals.

So I will continue to wear Che, with pride, and someday Eric, when I'm wearing my shirt, I hope you stop me and talk to me about it. Because I'll bet American capitalist dollars to donuts that I'll be making you look ignorant when it comes to Che.

And by the way, I'm a socialist, libertarians suck.

Bam! Direct hit.

I guess I don't even need to stop you on the street. The Che Guevara army is on the attack!

First of all -- and let's get one thing straight -- I am not one of those people who think it is OK to kill people if it is an "official" war (whatever that is) or if the people being killed are enemy combatants. Your statement...

"I doubt that many of you would claim that the tens of thousands of INNOCENT lives we have taken from Iraq or Vietnam or Korea or any other war were done out of evilness."

A loss of life is simply unnecessary and sets a bad example for the kids. It is a culture of violence. People like yourself enjoy the idea of fighting and killing for these righteous notions like peace, justice, and the socialist or islamic way (nearly interchangeable, of course).

If the only way you know how to solve big problems is by getting together with some of your enemies, and having a little killing party that displaces "innocent" bystanders and wrecks an economy... please go ahead and get your death on. On the bright side, I guess it is better than molesting schoolchildren or raping women.

But I do think you have some more thinking to do my 19 year old and soon-to-be-impoverished-expatriate. You will realize how much you love capitalism when you move to Cuba and realize everyone there couldn't give a shit about your beloved Revolution. They just want jobs homie.

Or you go to Uruguay or Paraguay (or wherever Che is from) and you find out that the only people who have read these cherished books of yours are your fellow impotent Marxist nerd boys.

Oh and about this little petty political labels war you want to start... how typical that you and your Socialist Authoritarianism choose to be so aggressive against my little ol' non-violent Libertarianism. Isn't it funny how we Libertarians pose such a grave threat to the supposedly righteous and inevitable Socialist Revolution. By the way, when is that Revolution supposed to happen anyway? Didn't your great comrade heroes predict an "inevitable" revolution almost 150 years ago??

I'm still waiting...

I think you misread what I wrote.

I never condoned violence. I am a complete pacifist much like yourself. In fact I despise violence. What I said was that to condemn Che as a murderer or as evil for the people that he killed in combat, which is all over this board, is absurd. It is equivalent to calling George Washington, who also killed people in combat, evil. I doubt you would do that. Whether you agree with Che and the revolution or not, he was a revolutionary as Washington was. I'm not an extreme fundamentalist. (And by the way, to say socialism and Islam are interchangable is laughable. If you recall, Communism is quite strictly anti-religion, whether or not that is right is another debate.) I don't think violence is the answer to anything, but if anyone gets hit, they're bound to hit back.

And to my "19 year old and soon-to-be-impoverished-expatriate" label, again, read before you write. I never said I was going to Cuba. I said that for you to condemn me for believing a certain thing, and being born into a society that is the opposite of that belief, is ridiculous. However, I do plan on leaving, to help those born less fortunate than I was, and I dare you to condemn that. I think that there should be a more level playing field for everyone in the world, and we have your beloved capitalism for that not being the case.

Lastly, not all socialists are violent, and not all libertarians are non-violent. And libertarians don't pose a great threat to the "revolution" that I never spoke of. However, I am familiar with libertarian ideology, and I don't think that you're a threat, I simply think the libertarian ideology is stupid. "Hands Off!" We'll just see what country will be in trouble if the libertarians ever, god forbid, take power. We'll see what's screwed up when no goverment regulation or intervention leads to corporate scandal that can't be dealt with, massive environmental devestation with no laws to protect it and every polluter to rape it, increasing gaps between the rich and poor, and overall economic anarchy (see NAFTA in Latin America.)

I'm not swayed in the least. And I'm still waiting.

This is fun. With humor as my weapon, I shall strike down those who attempt to poison my brothers. I am the shepherd of the weak.

Yes, George Washington was evil. He ordered the killing of many people. Who knows, maybe if we were still a British colony like Canada... we would be less violent and have more health care. Hmm, I wonder.

My only question now is how can you be a socialist AND a pacifist? Isn't that a contradiction? What will you do to me if I refuse to pay taxes or fight in your army? What will you do to me when I organize a capitalist underground resistance movement?

And again, please... go to the nearest poor country and help them. The U.S.A. could only get more perfect without you.

Alright, this has gone from a once legitimate conversation to you simply acting a fool.

Canada, however, is a great talking point and I am glad that you brought it up. (It, however, is not a British colony, I'm not quite sure what that was supposed to mean.)

Let's look at some differences between the US and Canada. Canada has universal health care for all of its citizens, the US has tens of millions without it. Canada has one of the lowest murder rates per capita of any industrialized nation, the US is far and away the highest without anyone on our heels. And you know what? Canada is a highly socialistic nation! The US is not.

As to socialism being a contradiction to pacifism, these are apples and oranges. One's political views are in no way related to their thoughts on violence. They're about as similar as your connection between socialism and Islamic fundamentalism, a gross stretch that has no merit. As to what would happen to you if you didn't pay taxes or started an underground capitalist revolution? Probably the same thing that would happen to you if you did those same things in America. (One usually doesn't claim the government is violent for punishing criminals, as long as the punishment is within reason.)

So I was hoping for a bit more of a civilized conversation, but you started to do the same thing that everyone else does when their arguments run thin, you just start throwing out garbage. Too bad.

Oh yeah, and you're not really funny at all and you're definitely not a shepherd for the weak, the majority of america thinks the way you do.

Oh, what poor sport you've become!

Alright. Let's see if I can salvage this without completely offending your need to save the world (and remain humorless).

What was your purpose in coming to my website and defending Che? Who cares about Che? I am simply bagging on the people who wear those t-shirts. It has nothing to do with ideology. It has to do with people giving their commie heroes the $20 capitalist t-shirt treatment. Don't tell me this is lost on you.

But about this "acting the fool" business. Wow, you finally figured it out. Ever wonder why this place is called the Stink Zone? Shit... I don't even know myself... and this is my website.

If I wanted to save the world I would be a professor and tell impressionable young people to go to Africa and help people gather firewood and carry water 40 miles every day. But if I were a renegade blogger I would suggest an easier path to redemption and righteousness. I would simply spread the notion that real revolution happens within. Poverty is neither a blessing nor a curse. Creation and destruction exist side by side. Maybe that is why you came here.

Besides, a fool beats a pedant any day.

But if we must get serious... the lasting revolution is not a top-down affair. Socialism is a top-down affair. Even Canada is a top-down affair. You are right that it would be nice if we could be peaceful and have health care like Canada. But ccomparing Canada to the U.S. is your own version of the apples/oranges game. Canada is a much smaller, more affluent, less culturally fractious place. If they had a history of slavery and got flooded with 200 million immigrants... they would act the fool just like us.

The only revolution that will work in the U.S. is vegetarian cooperative libertarian pacifism. Of course, you are more concerned with living out your Socialist fantasies in a 3rd world country. That's fine. One less person for me to convert.

Oh, and about that "shepherd" quote... I was actually speaking in the 3rd person... about you. You are the shepherd. And I am the tyranny of silly men.

I can appreciate your ragging on those who wear the shirts and know nothing about Che. I don't like them either. And I guess we can just agree to disagree on the rest. Your piece about the revolution from within is a nice thought, I agree with that as well, but it's going to to be pretty difficult to tell someone to find their "revolution" from within when they're dying of starvation.

"Poverty is neither a blessing nor a curse", that's very eassy to say when your born in the richest country in the world. So that's fine, as far as Hinduism goes, everyone has their own path to happiness, mine is helping others, yours is helping yourself. There's nothing wrong with that, or with you, but there are those out there who are not even able to help themselves.

That's who I care about.

Ya Basta!

Much respect Matt... thanks for keeping your cool. Give my regards to the world. If you ever come across someone who wants to post some writing on the web... send them my way.

Socialist Matt, your naive view of Canada is hilarious. Try talking to an actual Canadian, instead of listening to M.Moore's propaganda. This is a decaying, bankrupt society run by delusional utopian autocrats who are mentally stuck at age 21 circa 1968, who don't even have the balls to deport convicted terrorists. Come live here for a while, and see where our universally crummy health care system sends you when you need Cancer treatment...BUFFALO, NEW YORK! And there's plenty of murder here, too.

Do you guys get dental care up in Canada? While it is true that Canada has a stagnant economy, I think it is better to keep a person in jail than send them abroad to be executed. I'll assume you are referring to the extradition policy that references likely death penalty verdicts. That's a good policy, not a bad one.

That said, the level of socialism in Canada prevents it from realizing its economic potential and eventually those programs will need to be dismantled. The global economy is simply too competitive to allow for such luxurious policies. And don't fool yourself, Neil, we have great health care down here, but you just might lose everything you own to pay for it... if you're lucky and have assets.

Whatever happens, though, I just hope Canada remains relatively neutral and mostly peaceful, regardless of the economy and health care and all that commie stuff. Cuz down here it is straight capitalist oligopoly and not a pretty sight at all.

someone tell me how che guevara died,i just dont get it and my class is working on him at school

Yes I am a loving peaceful person but if you fucking threaten me (or my cuban hermanos) with physical abuse your the one who will get more than a rock bashed into your head ;D... as for the why such a vulgar shirt? I think it is not vulgar when it is meant for force, and at this point ...being a 22 year old student with the "socialist alternative" (or 40% communist movement) shoving there idiotic utopian papers in my face! and forcing me to see others being brainwashed by there bullshit propaganda you better beleve I am fet up and ready to be as vulgar as I can be! Viva cuba FUCK CASTRO AND CHE!

One might call the capitalist utopian ideas (Fox News) shoved in our faces propaganda as well. Everyone loves propaganda...until it's for something other than what we believe in. Reinforcement of ones ideas is a very comforting thing, but as soon as someone tries to change our ideas we get mad. I think most of America is brainwashed by what I call propaganda, what they call the news. I used to be. I used to be blinded by the red, white and blue. Now I only see red.

And I love it.

The Che was a good man. He really was. he was never actually a true Communist until late into his 20's. And although he came from a some-what wealthy Argentine family he never truely lived the life of a rich person. I suggest that you guys read "Che" By Jon Lee Anderson.. its a really good book and one of the most detailed biographies i have ever read.

Did Che kill people? Answer me that.

Of course Che killed people. He was a soldier in an army fighting against another army. There were deaths on both sides.

I am amazed at this huge debate on who Guevara was - murderer or hero. From what I have read here most of you have no idea who he was, what he stood for or the current state of affairs in Cuba.

Instead of simply repeating what you believe to be true, your time would be better spent reading history. Even if you have a negative opinion of Guevara, read his books to learn of the values he held. I don't mean biographies about him, read his actual words.

If you think Guevara was a terrible person be able to defend that better than writing he was a killer. Many US Presidents fought in wars. Some of them are "killers".

Bringing Gandhi and MLK Jr. into the mix is not a valid comparison. Neither is the socialism and Islam comparison. They are red herrings.

I have been to Cuba twice in the last year. I met countless people who told me stories of how much better their lives are since the Revolution. To counter that, look to the thousands of Cubans who have risked their lives trying to come to the US.

BTW There are brand new cars in Cuba; they are just not American cars. The people are not starving. One difference between the Batista dictatorship and the Castro dictatorship is that all citizens have free health care and free education through college.

There is no absolute truth to this issue. It is like trying to convince a Christian that God is not real. The belief comes from the inside.

Yeah, that's nice and all. But we are dealing with a more serious issue here...

Do you have a Che shirt?
And if so, do you wear it in public?

I have five Che shirts. Two were gifts, three I bought in Cuba.

Yes, I wear them in public. In fact, I wear them to work - to the public high school where I am a teacher.

LOL... You kinda remind me of the teacher from Beavis & Butthead that sang "Fly Lesbian Seagull" or however that song went.

I'm sure your students think you are a very righteous dude. No doubt. But Che was indeed a pro bono mercenary. He chose to solve social and economic problems through military activity, right? And unfortunately his legacy is felt greatest -- ironically -- in the field of graphic design, where military propaganda has remained a huge influence.

Ultimately, the problem with those five Che shirts of yours is that it sends the message to people that its OK to be a soldier -- if you are on the righteous and noble side. It's OK to kill people if you believe you are doing it for a good cause.

When one views the defense of a nation as an act of self-defense, then you are actually giving up your true self-defense. You are agreeing to die for your political affiliations. This is not righteousness, it is shortsighted fatalism. Che was not a labor organizer. Che was not a peace activist. He was a fucking mercenary... a "revolutionary for hire".

And if you are so convinced that Che was this righteous role model for all the kids out there... please Prof. Blanche... tell us what lessons we should draw from Che! If his mystique can be summed up in a single iconic image... then surely a few paragraphs would do justice to his political and philosophical views.

What is Che's legacy, outside the fashion industry?

What is Che's message to the kids?

Should I move to Iraq and fight against the Americans? Should I move to Afghanistan and live in a cave? Does the Paki Islamic underground need my help? Or does it need to be a secular communist movement to qualify?

You see, I too have worked as a high school teacher. Although I must admit... it was in the special education department.

First, most of my students don't have the faintest idea who Guevara was. They usually say something like, "Jay-Z was wearing a shirt with that guy's picture. Who is he?"

Guevara was a highly educated individual who wanted to ease the suffering of the poor. He helped to increase literacy in Cuba during and after the Revolution. He abandoned creature comforts for the idea of raising the oppressed to a higher standard of living. For the six years he lived in Cuba, he did voluntary work during much of his free time.

The reason why I think he was a great man is because he was committed to the notion of improving the lives of the down-trodden and over-looked members of society. He put material gain and his safety aside to help people.

I have read most of his books and several books about him. I know he was not a perfect man but the things he did were for the betterment of society as a whole.

If you want to move to Iraq and fight America or go to Afganistan and live in a cave, have at it. That is your choice. We each need to pursue that which is our correct path. I know that your point is that most soldiers consider themselves in the right but look to the greater good. Not to wax philosophic here and quote Spock on the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few or the one but that is what I see with Guevara.

Alright. Your points are well taken. Aside from being a freelance murderer, I guess Che was basically an OK dude. It is certainly clear that he meant well.

As far as moving to Iraq or Afghanistan, I just thought that would be the modern equivalent of what Che did. It seems that the current international jihad or whatever you wanna call it is extremely analagous. Che is maybe a lot more relevant than many people realize.

While I agree that we must each choose our own "correct" path... we all have our influences. And some might say we are mostly a product of influences. I simply want people to be honest with themselves about the relationship between their supposed goals and the consequences of their actions.

Again I must say that if one desires to end violence and injustice for all people... it cannot be done by joining in on a fighting party. This only legitimizes and reinforces the use of violence as a means to solving problems. The violence will subside, but as soon as the problem reappears, violence will be the first method used because it appeared to work the first time around. And yet it is the violence itself we should be figuring out how to stop.

If one desires to refrain from acts of violence on an individual level... this is very much possible. And the truth of the matter is that only when people choose to be nonviolent FOR THEMSELVES AND NO OTHER REASON AT ALL will the social disease of violence begin to subside.

It is my belief that progress in the "fight" against violence will be the key to solving all other widespread civic and international issues.

I do appreciate your taking the time to respond and thanks for sharing your views.

Blanche,

"One difference between the Batista dictatorship and the Castro dictatorship is that all citizens have free health care and free education through college."

It's funny how you even admit in trying to defend Castro, you call him a dictator. Is he the most evil dictator that's ever lived? No. That doesn't negate the oppression he's inflicted on his people. Thought that is threatening to the party is not tolerated and, while people have their bare necessities met, that's all.

My use of the word dictatorship was a word choice based on previous authors on this page. And I don't believe I ever "tried to defend Castro". Someone had earlier asked about or commented about the differences in the government. I simply provided two of the differences. My knowledge of Castro is small enough that I would never try to defend his record as the leader of Cuba. What I know of him is largely pre-1960.

The main problem for me is that both the U.S. government and Fidel Castro use each other to legitimize their heavy-handed tactics. In the end, the political leaders win and the people lose.

Here is an article that talks about the fact that Cuba already had strong economy and health care system before Castro...

usembassy.state.gov

And at the UNICEF site, you can compare Cuba with any country you like, based on various statistics...

www.unicef.org

But whatever the statistics, I think we should not fall into the trap of assuming that the Cuban people cannot provide for themselves in a Democratic manner, what Fidel claims only he can provide in his typically patriarchal manner.

Any economist will tell you that the most damaging thing for any modern country is economic isolation. Cuba may only be isolated from the U.S., but that is significant considering the U.S. would likely be its #1 trading partner in the absence of an embargo.

One last thing... what has Fidel done to prepare the political structure for the event of his death? Does he have a plan? Or is the country entirely dependent on Fidel, for better or worse?

I ask these questions rhetorically, but anyone is welcome to answer or share their views.

Thanks everyone. Good discussion.

In every great ideal there are flaws. I agree that the shirts are antirevolutionary, but at least I know someone is at least going in the right direction. At the base of Ernesto Guevara's ideals were compassion and self sacrifice. Violence was the only way to liberate (or try to liberate people). When people are pointing a gun at you and raping you physically, mentally and economically and you've tried talking....what else are you going to do. I personally am a pacifist and i'm lucky enough to be born in a country of agressors so I don't have to make that decision. But I'm not about ready to say that anyone who doesn't fight to our standards is cruel, I think that is ignorant. You could say that the USA's constant bombing and trade manipulation of other countries is a true act of cruelty.

Americans are born and bred into capitalism, finding yourself and linking yourselves with everyone else, but at the same time being an individual. No wonder everyone has confused ideals, because our own are messed up. Americans are much like the people of Brave New World without the sexual "confidence". So if a kid is wearing a Che shirt I hope that it is a step towards learning, opening their mind to alternate views and healthy cynicism. I know I'd rather have a world full of Che shirt wearers rather than a bunch of hazy eyed disallusion overpatriotic assholes.

Just like Monty Python... always look on the bright side. Instead of Che shirts or overpatriotic assholes... i'll take a world full of people like you, Elyse. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Eric, I agree with you on the shirt issue, to wear it, without knowing the history or what the man stood for is ignorant. However this said, Che's ideas can be respected, he did not believe in straightout killing, he did not believe in revolution as the first and only way to deal with goverments. One of his famous quotes states that: Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted.

Yes the man had faults, like many human beings, but to say that he was a freelance killer? That would make any solider a freelance killer then. Even those that fight for the oppressed or those that fought in the world wars. To say that Che is responsible for the current state of Cuba is also ignorant, the man died in 1967, he had nothing to do with the current state, Castro and Che had many disagreements over how Cuba should be handled, and is one of the many reasons he left cuba to go back fighting, and I personaly believe that if he were still alive today, that Che and Castro would have had a falling out, many gone to war against each other. For the social justice does not always occur in Cuba. Yes they have health care and education but they are oppressed, something that Che was against.

But last, one can still respect a man's ideas and not respect the man himself. He had many good ideas and thoughts which many of us can learn about, about fighting social injustice, doesn't mean one has to pick up arms and kill. To want to help those who are oppressed, one can still do them in a peaceful way. The amount of poverty and suffering required for the emergence of a Rockefeller, and the amount of depravity that the accumulation of a fortune of such magnitude entails, are left out of the picture, and it is not always possible to make the people in general see this. This is what Che was against, oppression that was made by capitalism. In America we do not see that oppression everyday, we do not see the poverty that we create in other countries, but one can still fight against poverty and oppression witout taking up arms.

Eric,

Are you going to see "The Motorcycle Diaries"?

Funny you should mention that. I just saw a preview of it before Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. It wasn't the most compelling preview, but maybe I'll check it out from the library when it comes out on video. Have you seen it or heard any reviews?

I am going to go see Motorcycle Diaries just to help my poor befuddled Texan mind comprehend how anyone could believe giving all power to the state could help anyone.

Yes, we Americans should stop being so provincial but the rest of the world should realize and be thankful that if just about any other country with the possible exception of Finland had our power it would be so much the worse for everyone. Compare us with for our degree of justice other regimes of our size and scope, like 1800's France, or ancient Rome, or modern China, not Switzerland or imaginary Utopias. It is precisely our retarded ignorance of the rest of the world that makes us more safely less likely to want it.

Maybe all you Che dudes would like it if the Soviets had won the cold war, so you could be forced to work at jobs you hate your whole life and have no hope (I have first hand experience with that). We are definitely the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Not that I think, on balance, we are evil, just that garbage comes with power, someone has to have it, and no one is perfect.

Globalization will replace us with the UN anyway. I hope it has the face of liberty and justice for all, but it will never be Utopia, and if that is what you demand you will be forever disappointed and angry.

"Befuddled" is right.

Globalization will replace the UN?? That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying Protestantism will replace the Baptist church. The UN is part of the globalization process. Globalization happens independent of the UN. The UN simply attempts to have an influence on various aspects of globalization.

The U.S. as lesser of two evils??? I didn't realize the world had to pick between two evils. There are certainly more than two possiblities. And right now it is our corporations, as much as our government, that influences other countries. Many of these corporations are multinationals, which means they should be considered as their own force, somewhat independent of their home nations.

I'll wear that "Fuck Che" shirt! I hate how people idolize him and make him out to be some hero when he was anything but. He murdered people, tortured, etc. Great guy, what ac role model.

So I thought I was going to be done on this page, but I feel the need to go on. And please forgive me, this is a bit of a drunken letter, but I've got some thoughts that I must express.

Eric said it best before when he said 'who gives a fuck about Che and what he did?' This isn't a page about that, and I wish that we could leave it at that, but there are so many Che bashers on this site that I feel like I must respond.

I feel like Father Concha, supporter of the Zapatista movement in Mexico, said it best when he said, and I quote, "We all want peace, but not at any price." I'm neither a Christian nor a militant, (in fact I'm an athiest and a pacifist if that makes a difference) but after studying the Zapatistas for many months I have realized something: pacifism does not always achieve the necessary goals. I can agree with Eric, a fellow pacifist, that violence only breeds violence. It does, and this I wish this was untrue, but I certainly cannot deny it.

However, sometimes, and I emphacize sometimes very strongly, violence, in some sence, is the only answer. I can respect those who disagree, I wish I could disagree because I have neither the balls nor the capacity to raise arms against another human being, but I still have the sense and the common sense (I feel) to realize that those in power in countries other than the United States do not always respond to pacifism.

This is where Che finally comes in (sorry for all of my philosophical ranting and raving.) I firmly believe that Che was one of those of those who think like me; pacifism is an incredible tool, one to be utilized, but in times where it is not useful the only way left to achieve the rights for those who deserve (deserve!) them is through action. Please, pretty please, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only massive movement I can think of for independence, social or literal, achieved through pacifism was the Indain revolution with Gandhi. (And even this was not thoroughly pacifistic in my opinion. I think the Brits saw all the turmoil between the Hindus and Muslims and got the hell out of dodge. I cannot even give total credit to pacifism in the civil rights movement in America, there was sooooo much more to it than Martin Luther King, Jr.)

My point is (after all of this bullshit) that yes, Che killed people, Che won't win the Nobel Peace Prize, Che might not be the best role model, but he fought and died for what he believed in, and what I believe in. So, for that, I cannot call him a bastard, or a murderer or whatever else you've got. I believe that he understood what was necessary to achieve for those who could not achieve for themselves, and for that I have nothing but the utmost respect. If I could be half the man he was, I'll be a better man than I ever thought possible in my opinion. If you've got a problem with that or with me, that's cool, all that boils down to is a philosophical difference that we definitely won't overcome on this board. I just think that, as much a pacifist as I am, he had the right idea: pacisifism is the best tool available, until that tool is no longer available which is when you have to keep looking, and if that means action that fucking means action.

Either way, I can do nothing but love him for doing what I probably am not capable of doing--dying for those who were born less fortunate than himself. He's got more balls than me for sure.

P.S. But I've still got to admit, I fucking hate those people that wear his shirt without knowing who he is.

Well, first of all I'd like to thank you for coming back and sharing more thoughts, Matt.

On the subject of dying for what one believes, could it not be said that people like Timothy McVeigh or Jeffrey Dahmer died for what they believed in, right? I'm not disagreeing with your fundamental premise, I'm just saying that the act itself is maybe somewhat irrelevant.

I think it is helpful to view warfare in the context of disease or starvation. Nobody says "Oh, we can fight our way out of disease or starvation". You either have a good option... or you die. People seem to believe that because war is a social situation, that we should be able to fight our way out of it. But the reality is that war seems to take on a life of its own, especially once it gets going strong. I think we should concern ourselves more with how it starts, how to prevent it. This follows the medical analogy.

Moving further along the medical paradigm, I believe we have an antidote for violence. But this antidote requires a healthy and disciplined mind. The antidote to violence is to have the discipline, strength and bravery to not be violent under any circumstance. And I think we can agree that if everyone took this antidote... there would be much less violence.

If you look at the vast majority of people who are involved in violent activities, probably 95% of those people have knowingly and willingly put themselves in a situation of violence. Maybe I am being unrealistic about this, but I believe most people have the option to avoid violence. The problem arises because a lot of people who are involved with violence either believe they don't have a choice or believe it is inevitable or justified.

The major irony and paradox of violence is that most people want to believe they are acting in self-defense of some sort. Very few people are thinking, "Oh, I am the bad guy who is reponsible for this circle of violence." I believe most violent people believe they are justly defending their own interests or those of their people. Just ask Palestine. Just ask Israel. Just ask Gernmany. Just ask Al Qaeda. Etc. By this view, even if we only allowed for so-called "defensive" violence... overall levels of violence would probably not change much.

Again, I believe we each have the choice to not be violent. And that is the only way to stop violence.

Eric I think you are right in your last post when you say that a lot people in violent situations put themselves there. Not all do, there are completely innocent victims, but I would say the majority are there by choice. The difference, however, is that none of the examples that you mentioned had ever been the victims, nor do they claim to be. They are all aggressors and I think that we can all agree that aggressive violence leads nowhere. Germany in the 40's, Palestine, Israel, Al Qaeda and Timothy McVeigh are all just terrorist organizations really that used violence as a way to secure power or other selfish things.

What I was talking about in my post, and what I will defend, is using force when force has been used against you. Not an eye for an eye, not revenge, not they shot at me so I'll shoot back, that's all ignorant meatheadedness. I can really only fully explain what I mean through, again, the example of the Zapatistas. These are people who were virtually abandoned by their government and had their land and homes stolen by their own government. I find it hard to believe that the very government who stole from them would listen to the cries for help coming from the jungle, and so did they. They took up arms for 12 days and 12 days only, for no other reason than to say: enough is enough. And it got the governments attention. Not subtle or pacifistic but, I feel, just. I know this is a flaw in my argument because how are you going to decide when it is right to use violence and for who, so I guess really all I can say is that I believe that there are some cases where violence may not only acceptable, but necessary as well when really is no other option than death. I would never strike first, but I would also never let myself be struck down until I died. I'm sure you won't agree, but that's just the way I feel.

Hello,
I stumbled onto this website while doing a quick google search regarding the charge that Che was a mass murder. It seems to me that most of what I am finding is not backed by any credible source. The closest thing I did find was that Che carried out excecutions towards war criminals, but even this charge lacked a credible source.
I admit to having a biased view towards Che. I simply love the man and everything he stood for. I find that when I read something about him or by him, I become emotional. The whole debate regarding the Che t-shirts is actually very funny. Not only did Che reject worldly materials, but his family is against the commercialization of Che's image. His daughter says that its hurtful and insulting to everything he believed in. With that said, I decided not to buy the shirt. I figure I can show my solidarity in more practical ways. If Che was alive today he would have apposed the war on Iraq (he probably would be fighting in Fallujah today!).
While reading the posts on this site i notice that while people have total love and respect for Che, very few actually have the same feelings towards Castro. While Castro and Che are not the same person, they both shared the same ideals and I do have a certain respect for the man. The Cuban revolution goes further than just free education and health care. Castro gave abortion rights to women the minute he came into power. Ive heard him describe situations of women under the previuos dictatorship where they would seek out "homemade" abortions, putting the mothers life at risk. Even today, he placed laws in cuba making sure that women are well protected by the government. I also know that Castro also elivated the role of the blacks in Cuba. Blacks in latin America are usually the poorest (along with the indiginous population). Castro made the black man equal to any white man in Cuba and I think that is a very honorable cause. Castro also tried to change the anti-gay sentiment in Cuba. In the carribean countries, gays are basically shunned in society. Im sure everyone has heard of the Jamaican reggae singers who are being boycotted in the US due to their homophobic lyrics. Castro on the other hand allowed gays to live peacefully in Cuba, giving them protection by the government. Oner person also made the false statement about not having elections in Cuba for 50 years. Regular elections do occur in Cuba. They may not be presidential, but they are local. Castro praises this, saying that it is individuals that run for office, rather than people representing a political party. In my opinion this is a more organic form of democracy. People become lost in the dogma of their specific political party. We see this in the US everyday with republicans only backing dubya simply because he's a conservative republican. I think the most important thing Castro has done in regards to his presidency, was in exporting the revolution. I dont think people realise that Castro is always sending doctors and nurses and other aid workers to 3rd world countries. With the current AIDS pandemic in Africa, the Cuban government sends plenty of doctors to treat patients and to train others. Most recently, he sent aid workers to Haiti to help with the devastation caused by the tropical storm. Castro even has a free medical school in Cuba that catters to educating other latin amaricans. This kind of opportunity is very helpful for the doctors that emerge from these schools. Not only can they treat patients with proper care, but they can also train others to do the same.
While i dont agree with the serious limits the Castro government has put on free speech and dissent in Cuba, you must also remember the good it has provided its people. Even if the cuban revolution stretched as far as free education and health care, these are prime factors in building a civilized society. I truly believe that if Cuba had not had its revolution, it would have ended up like Haiti. Some scholars even believe that for Haiti to survive in the years to come, it may require its own cuban revolution.
In his youth my father was a communist. He came from a poor area in the middle east and was of the lower class. His inpiration was not the Soviet Union, it was Che and Fidel. My father has abandoned his socialist beliefs now, but he still admires the legacy of both men. I myself am not a socialist, but I dont see the evil in it either. I do believe that it can work for certain societies (Cuba being one of them). Then again, I am Canadian and I do have that certain bias towards socialism.
Since i have written so much as it is, I will leave with this final note. I live in a canadian city that borders the US, and due to our lower drinking age, we recieve many Americans every weekend at our very vibrant night life. In between all the clubs and cafes in our downtown area are dozens of smoke shops selling cuban cigars. In the store window of one such shop is an enormous poster of Che smoking a fat cuban. This is to attract the American customers...

Hala... great comments. I especially like the image of Che with the cigar. How easily he is turned into a symbol of international capitalism!

I think there are two things you are overlooking. First, Che was a soldier. He killed people. You don't have to look for much evidence because it is assumed. And in some ways it is like Hitler. Nobody ever asks how many people Hitler personally killed. The point it is that both were military leaders.

Second, Castro has done some great things in Cuba. I greatly appreciate your bringing some much needed background information into this discussion. He has many great programs, but he has enacted them at the expense of the two of the three most important things in a country: free speech and a vibrant economy. If Castro is such a genius and he really has the interests of his people in mind, then he wouldn't just stop with what he had 20 years ago (let us not forget the country's total stagnation).

I can't think of a single person who would argue that a monarchy or dictatorship is better under almost any circumstance. Let us also not forget that Cuba could easily be the next Haiti BECAUSE of Castro. If there is a power vacuum after he dies and the country has a civil war and hundreds of thousands of people are killed... then maybe the revolution was no revolution at all... but really just a break in the fighting.

Matt... I would also lump the Zapatistas into the category of aggressive military activity. On January 1 of 1994 (I think it was) they declared war against the Mexican government and proceeded to get their asses kicked and to my knowledge it was largely symbolic and they had almost no chance of any significant military victory from the beginning. It was mostly a publicity campaign. I honestly can't say if I think they would have been better off if they never declared war in the first place.

My point is that true defense means laying low or leaving. Imagine you are on the street and someone attacks you. You have two options: fight or flight. Those who choose to fight are 10x more likely to have their heads bashed in or be killed. Those who run will be a lot more likely to live.

I agree that poverty is violence. But by suffering from poverty, one does not necessarily have to inflict that pain upon someone else and continue the circle of violence. The nature of violence is that almost every violent act continues the circle.

True self-defense is not reciprocating a violent act with another violent act, but choosing the safest response to violence, and one that breaks the circle of violence. Very rarely is a person face with what most people think of as individual self-defense (where you get attacked on the street and will be killed if you don't fight back). Those Zapatistas believed they had only one choice: fight. But can we look back and say that they are any better off because of it? Are those individual soldiers better off? A quick check of the facts reveals that many were killed... and yet the people are no better off.

That's the circle of violence. Those people could still be alive, albeit living in poverty.

Eric, I'm sure you expected this, but I have to disagree with you again.

You are right, the Zapitistas never expected a military victory over the Mexican government and they did take up arms for more a symbolic effect than anything else. However, they did exactly what they set out to do. Who gave a shit about (or even knew about for that matter) the indigenous in Chiapas before January 1, 1994? Nobody. Nobody knew about them and nobody cared. So did they succeed even though they lost militarily? I would argue yes. Yes to the fullest degree. Their intention was never to fully defeat the Mexican army, but to finally, for once in their lives, have their voices heard. And they did succeed in that, there's no denying that. Read any of Subcomandantes Marcos' letters and you'll see that, all they wanted was their voices to finally be heard.

And then you say that those who flee are more likely to live that those who stay and fight. You are right here as well, those who run like cowards are more likely to live. But, (and again this is probably a philosophical difference) I would much rather fight for what is rightfully mine and die than have some bullies with bigger guns than me push me around and kick me off of my own land and die. But again, that's just me. If it comes down to fight and die for what's right (and I emphacize right), or flight and live what's wrong, I'll be one of the dead.

And yes, I can honestly say that now the Zapatistas are better off than they were before. Before they were just a bunch of poor indigenous Mexican farmers with no voice, now they are a group that has been given the respect of the government that fucked them over so badly before.

True self defense is not simply not hitting back, true self defense is making sure you don't get hit in the first place.

(And sorry the topic of conversation has strayed so far from Che's shirt, but I feel like we're having a much more interesting conversation here.)

First of all, let's be real here... if you live in Chiapas and you got two kids and a wife... and you get the chance to leave with your family and start a new life somewhere else... and you stay and die and then you got fatherless kids. You might be brave. But kids can't eat bravery and now your wife has twice the burden. The middle option is to stay in Chiapas and not get killed.

The fact that Zapatistas killed people to "get international recognition" for their cause further bolsters my point. International support didn't have a significant impact. It is yet another case of idealism run amok. It is typical of Marxism in action... big talk, or brutal tyranny. Got some examples that go against that? Cuba???

You claim the Zapatistas "have been given the respect of the government". Is that really true? Has the government given up its plans for exploiting the natural resources without compensating the locals (that was one of the biggest complaints)? Are the people better off in terms of health and economy? And any gains the result of an end to the fighting, or is it because the government is actually doing something to help them.

Again, fighting for an idealistic notion of what might be -- but ultimately won't be -- is a lot less noble than putting your ego on ice and having the humility and inner strength to raise a family in poverty, without having any illusions that fighting will solve your problems. I'm not saying fighting NEVER improves a situation. I'm just saying it very rarely does. And even when it does, it is immoral. And Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam all agree with me.

It is actually the weak and cowardly man who chooses violence. Often violence of this sort is akin to suicide. Is suicide a brave act?

I always see kids at my school wearing his shirt mostly kids that are stoners and half of them dont even know what "che" actually means let alone know what he did in his life time I admit i dont know a whole lot about Che guevara I just saw kids wearing his shirt so instead of going out and buying a t-shirt i checked out what this guy is all about and he seems like an incredible person not just cause hes on t-shirts but because what he accomplished in his life time weather some people considered bad or good he wasnt thinking of what pther people thought of him he was just thinking what he thought was better for his people weather it did that or it did worse but the point is he did it without thinking of what anyone else thought

P.S Sorry about the spelling

Nogod I can appreciate your respect for Che, but the way you put it not do him much service.

Not caring what other people think is a noble attribute when you're talking about the clothes you wear, not when you're talking about a war. I should certainly hope that Che cared about what other people when he participated in the Cuban Revolution, he should have cared a whole damn lot. Revolutions can never occur without the support of the people, so to not care about what other people think of you if you are attempting a revolution is not very smart.

And this further goes to show that the July 26 movement did in fact have the support of the Cuban people (except of course for the large landowners). Fidel and Che landed in Cuba with only 50 men, give or take. It would have been impossible for 50 men to completely overtrhrow the government. The fact is that they were organized with student and activist organizations, and as time went on, nearly all of the campesinos in Cuba were trying to join in the revolution. So Che did care what other people thought, after all, he wasn't participating for personal gain, he was participating in order to achieve a better Cuba for the people (whether or not that happened is another debate) so he very much cared about what other people thought of him and his intentions.

I realize that I am joining this discussion a little bit late so I will apologize for refueling some of the older discussions. I have a couple of things to say about Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

Firstly, I find it interesting that not one of you has mentioned Fulgencio Batista, the Cuban president during the Revolution in 1958. Are you aware that this man killed 20,000 Cubans during his time in office? Batista and his army brutalized the Cuban civilians. He set fire to their houses and killed their families if they dared oppose his regime. He ran the country's economy into the ground by frued, greed and corruption, then fled to the Dominican with the millions of dollars he from the national treasury.. right out of the hands of the Cuban people! These were desperate times and most of us live such comfortable lives so far away from being able conceptualize how awful Batista was.

Secondly, yes, Che Guevara ordered executions. Yes he killed many people during the Revolution. I do not negate this reality... but before you all start writing things about F*** Che Tshirts... do yourselves a favour and pick up a book about the history of Latin America (or the Vietnam War for some really good pictures of what American foreign policy is all about!). Things are not always as they seem. Guevara was a doctor from Argentina... he became one because he wanted to HELP PEOPLE. That is the same reason he decided to pick up arms instead of his medical bag... he wanted to HELP PEOPLE. You do not have to be an advocate of violence to oppose the oppression of millions of people around the world... and this, my friends, is who Che Guevara was. Ask youselves when was the last time you stood up for something you believed in, the last time you were prepared to die for your principles?

We can argue politics and ideals and morals and justice until we are blue in the face here.... However, whether or not you agree with Che's Marxist ideology, whether or not you think you hate Fidel Castro, 12 men started the fight to overthrow the monster Batista in 1956. (Batista was $upported by Washington, by the way... they needed him so that the wealthy American landowners in Cuba could continue to exploit the cheap labour to export things like coffee and sugar... read a little bit about the history of the United Fruit Company in South America!).

Two years later, 50,000 peasants and workers and students marched into Havana with Castro and Che and others on their victory day! 12 to 50,000!!! Now you tell me the people of Cuba weren't fed up by their government!!!

Not one of you can tell me that you do not pick the clothing you wear everyday because it says sends a very personal message about who you are, what you believe in. We all do it! So don't start spouting things about Che Tshirts... especially if you own something made by Nike or a dozen other companies that profit by exploiting cheap and often child labour in underdeveloped countries. Think about what kind of statement you are making then!

CHE RULES!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S: n no i'm not one of those ignorent people who dnt know wat his done or wateva coz i luv reading about him n his books but i just cant b bothered blabbing his whole life story coz weve heard it 2 much already.

FYI: "ignorant"

What it comes down to is that the people of Cuba are suffering terribly and I don't need to read it in a book or look at statistics on a website. I have family who have risked their lives by getting on a balsa (raft) floating through 90 miles of choppy shark infested water to get to the US. What are they litterally dying to get away from? The revolution! From the grasp of the Cuban government headed by Castro! That's what it comes down to.
Yes Che helped to put this government in place. And personally I don't like him. And I do wear a shirt that says, "Che's dead! Get over it!" And no one is going to bash my head in!
What it comes down to is that the people in Cuba are starving and suffering. I don't want to hear anyone say that Cuba is great; the education is free the health care is free. As you look deeper NOTHING IS FREE! Everything in life comes at some cost. And if you haven't spoken to a Cuban in America who has recently come from Cuba, or gone through the barrios of Cuba yourself, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING ANY CUBAN-AMERICAN ABOUT CUBA AND HER STATE OF AFFAIRS. Plain & simple.

Che was no better than any other murderer for a totalitarian cause. I wouldn't wear a "Fuck Che" shirt because it's a little self-degrading. I would wear one that shows his image torn in two though. For those of you so enamored with the Castro island prison, why don't you emigrate to Cuba? If and when you want to return some time perhaps you can find a nice inner tube and pray your luckier than Elian's ma.

Check out what Pitbull has to say about Che. Click on my name to read the article.

specialsections.nypost.com

Here's the facts and reality, Che was a pawn in the game known as"Let's keep everyone under my thumb until death do us part"

I've been to Cuba and seen and heard Castro's rhetoric first hand.
Simply put, Che was a pure idealist,in a world where that ideal would never come to fruition.
Marx's manifesto was a brilliant piece of work. The only thing it lacked was a true field test. The final collapse of the Soviet Union proved that it was just an idea. However before that, Che, I think, believed in what he was doing. Unfortunately. Castro had, and still practices to this day, other ideas.
For example, I was in Cuba during the whole Elian fiasco. Castro told and conveyed to his people, through propaganda, that we essentially kinapped him and held him against his will. Not true.

Che believed that he was standing up to oppresion. Standing up for the common man. Castro knew this and exploited it. Castro is a maniacle bastard who knew that eventually his "pawns" and slaves would see through his Bullshit. He needed someone who would be a great example and scape goat all-in-one. Hence, Che Guevara.
Give Castro credit, he knew that somewhere down the line he would slip up in word or deed. You can see it today in Cuba. He's using the same MO he did 45 years ago.
I think Che was neither a murderer nor a hero, but rather a man who didn't have a grip on the reality of this world. A Murderer is defined as premeditated, eveil, sadistic and kills with pleasure. History is a broken record, and Che refused to listen and comprehend it.
This is not to say what he did was right. I think he is one in a group of hundreds throughout recorded history who has believed his own bullshit with stoping to take a whiff.
In conclusion, fuck communism and the slavery it invokes. Please send me a "Fuck Che" shirt if you have one.

Hasta Seimpre La Mierde lo pase

CHE RULEZSZZ

www.newsmax.com

He was an executioner; a murderer.

That was probably the worst article ever written. That's probably why it's in NewsMax.com (whatever the hell that is) and not in any credible news source. This guy had a boatload of nonsense facts that aren't true (too many to go over, but ask if you want the full list), he doesn't seem to know much about Guevara's life, especially his relationship with Fidel, and true to any other fake news organization, he fails to cite any sources. I think we all learned from Dan Rather that citing sources is a pretty crucial piece of journalism. NewsMax deems itself "America's News Page", and obviously, in line with Fox News, spills "news" twisted to match up with what all the republicans in this country want to hear.

So Satyagraha, keep reading your fake news from biased "reporters" because it makes you feel good, no need to worry about truth. I mean if it's on the internet it's real, right?

That's funny. I thought Newsmax was like a Republican version of The Onion. But I guess it's not a joke. Er, well at least not an intentional joke. But you gotta admit it's pretty funny to lead off an article about Che with a quote from Alice In Wornderland.

Wow, it's amazing how so many ignorant people are out there. AS a republican and a student with a major in political history and a spotless GPA, Che was a communist guerilla who worked under Castro, and anybody who supports that leftwing sadist is no friend of mine. All you yuppie, prep school, fashion crazed daddy's girls need to get your asses off the picket lines and off the couch and learn what your supporting. If you want to be brainwashed by idiot liberal pop culture be my guest but don't go crying censorship when you get hosed down for being an anti American terrorist, you fucking idiots. kudos to Matt Helm.

Wow... some serious hostility displayed right there! You've got me confused, though. You seem to be complaining about fascism, sadism, and brainwashing. Religious fundamentalism, disinformation, torture, election fraud, and the abandonment of Geneva conventions... No, it's not the axis of evil... it's your beloved Republican party.

Ann... Take a deep breath and learn to respect people, in spite of their differing political views. It's called tolerance. You should try it sometime.

Matt -

a) Dan Rather worked for a previously conceived 'credible' news source, and 'credible' is a rather (no pun intended) subjective term to base such an argument upon. For instance, some regard the bible as a credible source of information – some don’t.

b) 'Cuban journalist Luis Ortega, who knew Che as early as 1954, writes in his book "Yo Soy El Che!" that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad. In his book "Che Guevara: A Biography," Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first few years of the Castro regime.'
That looks like two sources to me. It is unfortunate, but history forces us to look to 3rd and 4th party sources for information often times. Where else would Historians be able to get information? Perhaps from the writings of the individual being studied, but such writings are bound to be tainted with biases, especially from a communist ideologue.

c) I fail to see how Guevara's relationship with Castro would matter; if he murdered thousands without a trial so as to preserve a barbaric cult-of-personality dictatorship, he's a murderer.

d) You never proved that my news source was discreditable, you simply assumed it. That's very sloppy logic.

TO ALL OF THE PPL WHO THINK CHE WAS A MURDERER FOR YOUR INFORMATION HE WAS JUST A COMMANDER. HE TOLD PPL WHERE TO GO THATS IT. HE DIDNT KILL PPL HE JUST MADE THE SOLDIERS GO TO PLACES THATS IT!!!!! READ THE STORY OF HIM BEFORE U TALK SHIT. LOOK AT CUBA NOW ITS SHIT BECAUSE OF CASTRO IF CHE WAS IN POWER IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER BUT NOW SINCE FIDEL IS IN POWER IT GOT FUCKED UP AND CHE WANTED EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EVERYONE AND FIDEL WANTED GOVERNMENT TO GO HIGHER AND THE POORER JUST POORER. CHE WAS NOT A BAD PERSON BECAUSE U GUYS DONT KNOW THE STORY. THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED BECAUSE A GUY BY THE NAME OF BATISTA WAS A MONSTER. HE GAVE EVERYTHING TO THE RICH AND TO THE MIDDLE CLASS AND TO THE POOR COULD GO TO HELL. HE DIDNT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT MONEY. FIDEL AND CHE GUEVARA TRIED TO STOP THAT AND GIVE TO THE COMMUNITY SO BEFORE U GUYS SAY THAT UR GONNA KILL WHOEVER WEARING A SHIRT WITH A PICTURE OF CHE REMEMBER I`M WEARING THAT SHIRT AND U AINT GONNA DO JACK S#*T TO STOP ME FROM WEARIN IT OK CAUSE HE WAS A PERSON DYING FOR WHAT HE BELIEVED IN. AND YOU KNOW WHO KILLED HIM??? GOOD OL` FIDEL CASTRO HE CALLED THE AMERICAN ARMY AND TOLD THEM WHERE HE WAS BECAUSE HE WAS LOOSING POPULARITY. CHE WAS NOT A MURDERER AMERICA ITSELF IS WE HAD WAR WITH THE UK, GERMANY, AFRICA, KOREA, ALMOST WITH RUSSIA, VIETNAM, JAPAN,IRAQ(TWICE) AND UR SAYING THAT CHE IS A MURDERER WE HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY COUNTRY AND WE ALWAYS FIGHT WITH EVERYONE AND BUSH IS DOING A SHITTY JOB WITH ECONOMY BECAUSE 2 MILLION PPL LOST JOBS AND HE TAX CUTS THE RICH, HE WONT PARDON LATIN AMERICAN DEBT AND I BELIEVE THAT I WOULD BE A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN HE WOULD BE. SO ONCE AGAIN CHE IS NOT A MURDERER HE DID NOT KILL PPL HE WAS A COMMANDER HE TOLD PPL WHERE TO GO AND HE WAS JUST A POSTER BOY FOR REVOLUCION THATS IT FACE THE FACTS PPL HE DIDNT DO ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT WANTED HIM DEAD BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID THAT THE REVOLUTINO WOULD COME HERE TO AMERICA SO FUCK EVERYONE WHO HATES CHE!!!!!!!

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

che was a good man. sure he commanded executions big deal like we havent???look at texas they still electricute ppl. ppl who hate che dont even know what the fuck they are even talking about. che wanted fulgenico batista outta cuba. batitsa was a guy who wanted the poor to be poorer and the rich to be rich. he ran the economy into the ground because he wanted a deal with washington. there are kids in cuba who work long hours and do me a favor look on the tag or your shirt and it will say made in korea or honduras or uruguay and its mostly south america che and fidel tried to stop that. fidel was a bad man i have to admit cause my friends grandmother worked for fidel but she secretly coppied papers from the ppl who took notes and he called the president or something like that and told them where che was do u thnink that right when they got che and the revolucion ended was a bit strange???to the ppl who say the stuff with fuck che shirt can go suck a fart outta my ass cause frankly i`m sick and tired of your shit. anyone of you say ur gonna kill me for wearing his shirt i`ll bust a cap your motherfuckin ass cause i`m from Newark and u are not gonna tell me to not wear his face on my shirt cause he was a good man. the CUBAN PRESIDENT KILLED 20,000 CUBANS BURNED THERE HOUSES AND KILLED THEM IF THEY SAID ANYTHING BAD ABOUT HIS GOVERNMENT AND CHE WANTED TO STOP THAT SO TO THE PPL WHO LIKE SEEING CHE SUFFER PLEASE GO READ THE LATIN AMERICAN HISTORY OF CHE AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK OF HIM NOW BECAUSE TO THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT HE WAS A MURDERER PLEASE YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOUR TALKIN ABOUT SO PLEASE DONT BE TALKIN SHIT

Martin...

Even in the U.S... if you hire someone to kill somebody, or assist with a murder... you can be found guilty and serve many years in prison.

The entire military structure is based around killing people. A war machine has many parts, but they all work together to achieve the same goal: kill people. Agreed, sometimes that killing "defends" us against an "enemy". But one need only look at the "Operation Freedom" to see that it is more readily used in an aggressive, rather than defensive, manner.

By Brooks A. Mick
Nov. 30, 2004

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." --Winston Churchill

I think we can all see Churchill’s point, that fighting to prevent descending into slavery would be imperative. But what can we say about someone who fights and executes hundreds or thousands of innocent people simply because he doesn’t like the idea of your friendly neighborhood Walmart? That is, at heart, why Che Guevara fought. He wasn’t oppressed or poor. He was a medical doctor, having originally trained to become a doctor at the University of Buenos Aires. Then, in 1952, he set out on a trip through South America. This was recently glamorized in a movie, “The Motorcycle Diaries,” which appear to have made him a hero and role model for the youth of America. T-shirts and sweatshirts with Che’s picture on them are cropping up in malls all around the USA.

But do these young kids really know anything about the so-called human being they are idolizing?

After he completed his Easy Rider knockoff trip— or did Peter Fonda do a knockoff of Guevara?--, he returned to Buenos Aires to complete his medical degree. Guevara set off again to travel through Central and South America. Somewhere along the way, he developed a hatred of Walmart and joined in communist movements in Guatemala and Mexico and then joined Castro's revolutionary Cuban army in 1956 as a top commander and Castro's personal physician. He helped Castro topple the Batista regime in Havana in 1959, at which point the communists became more vicious murderers than the regime they replaced, following the example of Lenin and Stalin. Guevara ordered the execution of hundreds of people while in charge of the La Cabaña prison in Havana. Being no great believer in civil rights and justice, he said, "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate." In this he was much like Lewis Carroll’s Red Queen in “:Alice in Wonderland:” Verdict first, trial later. But he carried it even further, doing away with the trial altogether.

Strange to me is that people idolize a man best known as a cold-blooded killer, a man with the capacity for infinite hatred. Indeed, he preached hatred. Hatred was his religion.

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold- blooded killing machine – this is what our soldiers must become." Heck, that sounds like Osama bin Laden to me!

His hatred of Walmart and other corporations was so great that he tried to convince Castro and the Soviet Union that it would be good to start a nuclear war with America during the Cuban missile crisis. For reasons best known to themselves—perhaps Castro and the Soviet leaders weren’t so keen themselves on being annihilated— they backed down and the nuclear missiles were pulled out of Cuba. This hurt Guevara’s feelings, so he decided to take his football and set off on various little forays around Africa and Latin America, and after killing hundreds of innocent people, he vanished from sight and like Elvis was sighted in various places for many years. It seems, though, that some of those people he was shooting in the back of the head got fed up with him and killed him and his little band of merry men in Bolivia, where his body was discovered recently.

All the while, it seems, he continued to preach his religion of hate. "Blind hate against the enemy creates a forceful impulse that cracks the boundaries of natural human limitations, transforming the soldier into an effective, selective and cold killing machine. A people without hate cannot triumph against the adversary, “ he said in a rousing pep talk to his guerilla thugs in Angola.

As communist thugs go, Guevara was a piker, responsible for the deaths of only a few thousand people, most likely, while other communists such as Josef Stalin and Mao managed to kill millions. But I’m glad he finally got his just reward and rotted in a Bolivian jungle.

Perhaps we could print up copies of the true story of Che Guevara and staple them to the ignorant kids wearing Guevara T-shirts in shopping malls. Guevara would probably approve, since the idea of selling—EEK! Capitalism!—his T- shirts would probably cause him to spew more hatred and shoot the poor teenagers in the back of the head.

So, in the end, rather than fighting to prevent their own enslavement, communists kill innocent people just because they don’t like Walmart. How pitiful. As role models go, I prefer Churchill.

On the other hand, just to prove I can say something nice about Che, his handbook on guerilla warfare is a classic and available on Amazon.com. It was quite useful during my tour of duty in Vietnam in the “know your enemy” sense.

Still, parents, I wouldn’t let your son wear a Guevara T-shirt.

I saw this article and I thought it was interesting.. This person has some good points, though I think it might be a little belittling (sp?) and oversimplified to say he joined because he hated walmarts.

My wife is from Argentina and she admits to not knowing a thing about who Che Guevara was, and no one she has contact with knew either (family or friends). I don't like the fact that people idolize Che without having all the facts, and I personally don't like anyone that would preach such hatred and lack of allowance for civil rights. And while I can't speak for the accuracy of the article, or the objectivity of the writer, it makes some sense to post this here.

O PISS OFF!!! DO U NO WHY THERE WAS A REVOLUCION IN THE FIRST PLACE??? A GUY BY THE NAME OF FULGENCIO BATISTA WAS PRESIDENT AND HE BURNED PEOPLES HOUSES AND KILLED THEM EXECUTION STYLE IF THEY DARED OPPOSE THEM. HE ALSO CUT A DEAL WITH WASHINGTON D.C. TO HAVE PEOPLE WORK FOR CHEAP LABOR SO THINGS WOULDNT BE EXPENSIVE. CHE AND FIDEL WENT OVER THERE AND DID WHAT WAS RIGHT AND TO REMOVE THEM FROM POWER. HE FLED WITH MILLIONS YES MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM THE CUBAN PEOPLE AND FLED TO THE DOMINICAN AND THATS WHY THERE WAS A REVOLUCION. WE ALSO HAD A REVOLUCION AGAINST THE BRITISH BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLING US AND ENSLAVING US AND WE REBELLED AGAINST THEM AND WE WON SO WHY IS IT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE FIGHT FOR THERE RIGHTS THEY CAN`T BUT WE CAN THAT IS VERY UNFAIR. SO CHE WAS A GOOD PERSON AND WENT FIGHTING AND NOT LIKE A LITTLE BITCH IN A CORNER WHIMPERING. HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. CHE, MARTIN LUTHER KING, MALCOM X, ROSA PARKS, FIDEL CAN BURN IN HELL CAUSE HE SOLD CHE OUT AND TOLD THE BOLIVIAN ARMY WHERE HE WAS SO HE CAN GET KILLED BECAUSE FIDEL WAS LOOSING POPULARITY.

Whoah Nelly.

A:

Turn your CAPS lock off bro, you look like a dumbass.

B:
The word is Revolution.

C:
I don't mind people rebelling. I don't mind armed combat to overthrow people. I do mind people that have no respect for the lives that they take, and seem to want to do so indiscriminately. Also, I don't know if I said anywhere that the regime before Castro was a lovely one, in fact it was just the opposite. But I also don't believe that it has gotten better, either. You make a sad comparison between MLK, Rosa Parks, and Che. They both preached love, while Che preached hate.

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold- blooded killing machine – this is what our soldiers must become."

If that quote is correct, then find a quote anywhere of any of the people you so intelligently compare in your posts to Che.

Martin -

a) Bombast and imbecilic rhetoric are indicators of a poorly systematized argument and illogical analysis. I implore you to discard your emotional ravings and spurious condemnations, and open your mind to the clarity of reason. This Guevara dispute boils down to a matter of conflicting ethics, which I will explain in further detail below.

b) All conflict, whether violent or non-violent, is exercised to service a particular goal or series of goals. Once one or several such goals have been selected by the participants (sometimes voluntarily and often times not) the conflict is no longer a question of 'why?' but a question of 'how?'; in short, the participants have to devise an effective methodology to bring their goal, or goals, into fruition.

c) With the mechanics of conflict outlined and defined, let us examine the situation of the 1959 Cuban Revolution:

The goal of the Cuban people was not to overthrow Batista, but to attain representation in government and secure basic human rights, which the autocrat Batista failed to provide and frequently violated. Thus, their goal was freedom, and their methodology involved disposing of Batista and his regime.

c1) Castro, Guevara, and most of the other fighting revolutionaries had no intention of providing the Cuban people with the freedom and prosperity they sought, as a matter of fact, Castro lied to the people of Cuba when he firmly declared that he was not a Communist (see the interview he conducted with NBC reporter Lawrence Spivak). The people of Cuba who harbored, sheltered, and aided the belligerent revolutionaries were under the mistaken assumption that Castro would provide Cuba with free elections and a bill of rights, not an autocratic military dictatorship; they had been under dictatorial rule since 1952, when Batista first seized power. Why would the average Cuban citizen be eager to swap one oppressor for another? This illustrates that while Castro and his cronies, Guevara included, were declaring firm anti-Communist sentimentalities (so that they could gain the support of the Cuban people), they had covertly planned to seize and retain power by whatever means necessary ahead of time. After all, Guevara was already a hard-line Communist when he first met Castro in Mexico City in 1954-55, so why would he have willingly aided a pro-Capitalist/pro-Democratic leader, as Castro claimed that he was at that time? This leaves us with one immutable conclusion: Castro’s revolutionaries and the Cuban people supported the same methodology (depose Batista) but for radically different goals (Autocracy vs. Democracy). The goal of the Cuban people was absolutely ignored by Guevara and Castro.

d) Here is where ethics factors into the situation. In Castro’s and Guevara’s elimination of one ruthless regime (an autocratic rule, enforced by Batista) they simply replaced it with another (an autocratic rule, enforced by Castro). How is that in any way ethically sound? Yes, Batista’s regime was immoral, but how is rounding up ‘political dissidents’, as Guevara and Castro termed them, and executing them by the thousands excusable, just because Batista’s regime happened to be immoral? I would appreciate it if you could answer that question for me.

By the way, a majority of the people that Guevara executed and imprisoned on Castro’s behalf were not involved with Batista in any way; this is illustrated by the fact that by the 1960’s Castro and Guevara had already imprisoned 80,000 people as ‘political prisoners’ in a nation of only 6.9 million citizens. If you don’t believe me, look up information on Armando Valladares.

e) Finally, please do not desecrate the name of Martin Luther King Jr., who despite his faults, used the only moral means available to man to enact change – non-violent resistance. Personally, I see all violence as illogical, immoral, and ineffective, yet I am firmly not a pacifist; I believe in the essentiality of conflict. There are plenty of people in this world that seek, or will seek, to coerce others, yet, to resist them by coercing them into not coercing is an absurdity, and a complete violation of the validity of one’s defense; to do nothing, as would befit a pacifist, is to submit and placate to the purveyors of such coercion. Hence, I know with certainty that non-violent resistance (performed successfully by both Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi) is the only way to effect lasting, durable change; it seeks to enlighten the enemy on the invalidity of their actions, not force them to simply comply. It is impossible to rule people who refuse to submit, and refuse to ascribe to the same mistakes as their coercive rulers; it might require generous allocations of time, but the enemy will eventually realize that it is not in their best interest to pursue their coercive deeds. Martin Luther King Jr. is not comparable to Guevara as a political entity.

I won't comment on this, just take a look.

us cuba infant mortality 6.63/1000 6.45/1000
life expectancy 77.43 77.04
AIDS rate 0.6% 0.1%
literacy 97% 97%
GDP growth 3.1% 2.6%
unemployment rate 6% 2.6%

source: www.cia.gov

Look Matt, this isn't a contest.

No one is saying Cuba sucks. And I can't imagine anyone who reads this site regularly is in the dark about my contempt for most U.S. policies.

What is at debate here is the degree to which we should respect Che and, I guess, Fidel. If you think those statistics are worth a military dictatorship... then go ahead and respect that.

But some of us are looking at more than just statistics. The overall structure must be brought into question. The Soviet Union also had comparable employment rates (it helps when your taxes are above 90% and everything is subsidized). North Korea has a life expectancy of 71 years and literacy rates of 99%.

You need to go beyond mere statistics. What we are debating is whether these statistics are worth the costs. But, more importantly, and whether these statistics are truly the result of the will of the people, or the result of a dictator who uses such statistics to legitimize what might be termed "extreme corruption".

not a contest, just an observation.

no u guys dont understand me martin luther king died for what he believed in am i wrong or rihgt? che died for what he believed in too. do u guys know who fulgencio batista was??? i`ll tell u. he was the pres. of cuba. and he burned ppl`s houses and murdered them and he was responsible for more than 20,000 cuban murders. when che and fidel took over, batista stole millions from the cuban government and fled to the dominicans( and satyagrah one more thing i hate fidel too cause he lied to us all and he also snitched out che because he was loosing popularity)

fj one more thing do u no anything about che? he didnt preach hate in fact i never heard him say lets burn houses and kill women and children. if u find a quote that he said that let me know cause i`m curious(one more thing eric can u open the bloods and crips thing again???

hey i want to know all of the bad things that che did-who he killed-how many-things like that

lol... i like how you ask me if i will open the bloods and crips post. as much as i want to start a whole bloods vs crips message board -- seriously -- i am honestly worried that law enforcement and fbi would use the board to gather information about gangs. i could get sooooo much traffic, but i just know it would spin out of control.

on the other hand, maybe time spent on the computer means time away from shooting other kids on the block and selling drugs. maybe i will open another thread and we can discuss the topic.

I am not an "united-statian" (everybody who is borned in South, Central or North America is an American), I like your country and the peolple very much but I must say something, with no intention to be aggressive. I think that people who support Bush (the biggest international terrorist ever), Irak and Afghanistan don't have any moral capacity to judge any issue concerning Guevara. He killed people for a better world. Maybe his judgements were wrong. United States are killing inocent people for oil and the belical-military industrial complex, trying to recover USA's economics. And this is only the beginning. You have to look for what you are doing with your own country and the rest of the world (by an egoistic motivation supporting Bush) before to criticise people who commited mistakes try to make the world better.

So, Mr Valverde. You still believe that Pres. Bush went to war for oil. And Che died for a great "cause". First of all you probably also said that Bush lost the election the first time until time proved you wrong and he won again. Now you are again wrong about both Bush and che. che was a stalinist communist who killed unsympathetically for his great "cause". Not in war, but if anybody opposed to him, no court trial, nothing. che was a loser big mouth kid needing to fight for something, in this case communism. For your information communism caused mass hunger in a way that a capitalist country has never seen. capitalism rules the western world and will always. che was a loser and is thankfully gone. If you want to learn more about capitalism with an open mind watch "COMMANDING HEIGHTS", a PBS documentary based on the book. You will see that all of ches ideas and others trying to "help" the people by forcing on them a police style government that kills freely and opposes freedoms that countries like America take for granted and would never take away (including Bush) does much more harm than good time after time. che was a satan.

Remmeber, Ernesto did want to spread another form of Communism also, aside from what Castro wanted, he fucked up by being over zealous and became drunk with his ego and power. I can understand Che going off to rebel elsewhere because he didnt like how Castro was turning out to be.

jim ur such a hardheaded person. do u no who was in power before castro? fulgencio batista. that motherfucker killed my grandmother and 20,000 other cubans just because they didnt like him, they had there houses burned out and no place to go. when che and castro came along they through him out and when they did he "STOLE" millions of dollars of the cuban treasury and fled to the dominicans and thats why they had a revolution. by the way i dont like castro cuase he was the reason che got killed. anyway che wasnt a drunk asswipe he went to bolivia to train more troops to spread rebellion everywhere. shit i`d like a country that gives me free healthcare

o jim i`m sorry i called u an asswipe i ment slipknot above me. no hard feelings?

o one more thing (Eric police enforcment cant invade the bloods and crips thing because for example if there was a hostage situation in a phone booth and the shooter calls someone they cant bug the phone cause its not authorized if they do that its an invasion of privacy and that person can sew. so eric open it(AND NO I AM NOT FORCING U TO OPEN IT)

Funny thing, Che Guevara came to Bolivia in the 60s to start a "communist" revolution trying to accomplish the same goals as the 1952 revolution. He promised land reforms (already in effect) and the overthrow of their president (whom was widely loved by the people). Then he attempted to overtake the military without any support from the peasants or any other Bolivians(about 30 men up against the entire military... this guy was a genius). We caught him and gave him two shots to the head. Murdered the murderer. Before you buy a "trendy t-shirt" learn your history.

Ladies and Gentlemen

CHE was a man who beleived in the Utopian dream, where every man is free. Each and every person is treated equally. No tyranny, no opression.

He identified the enemy and stood up to fight this invincible force. He even achieved success to some degree. He rose to challenge the supreme infallible tyrannical authority.

Even power did not tempt him. He had the desire to transform the world. He dreamed of a better tomorrow for the world, and died for this cause.

He valued his fellow South Americans and stood up for them.

How do these things make him an evil person?

Even the killings he ordered were in an open court. There WERE well publiciced and well attended trials. Of course he executed those who committed exesses against the Cubans.

But the only thing the US says about Che is "Blah blah blah he ordered these many executions and that many blah blah."

What about the excesses on Guatemala and the US supported fascist dictatorships? These are very conveniently forgotten.

Che was born out of a struggle. He was no murderer, he fought for freedom.

Che was a murderer, he killed thousands of Cuban's in the revolution and had a part in killing many more. There was no reason to kill for freedom in Cuba as Cuba was already free under Batista. They had free trade with the U.S., people lived well, yes there was some poor people in Cuba at the time but hell! there's plenty of countries today with poor folks uncluding the U.S. Are we going to overthrow the U.S governement because of it? NO!
Che was a selfish revolutionary that cared only about power and tirany, the communist way! Don't be fooled over the freedom fighting crap thats just a smoke screen to justify their reason to murder innocent people.

You have got to be kidding! Notorious, your knowledge of Cuban history is sorely lacking. There is no reasonable way to compare contemporary America to Batista's Cuba.
"There was no reason to kill for freedom in Cuba as Cuba was already free under Batista." I think that the oppressed masses would argue about the amount of freedom in Batista's Cuba. It is a larger issue than free trade and an open economy. The 26th of July Movement was a popular movement among the people. The revolution succeeded because people stood behind overthrowing the government.
And if Che simply wanted power he would not have gone to to Bolivia. He would have retained his authority and position in Cuba.

Any and all of you CHE bashers should be ashamed of the words that escape your ignorant mouths. None of you will ever be half the man he was, accomplish half the greatness he did, or have the balls to attempt half of what he accomplished. This man left a wealthy, middle to upper class family in Argentina to fight for us, the proletariet, when he easily could've remained on his upper class bullshit pedestal.He realized all the chingaderas that capitalism did and still does to bend us over and give it to us like punks. He let his HUEVOS hang and did something that none of you cowards will ever have do! Take off your fuckin' Nike kicks and Old Navy t's. Open your eyes and mind to the revolution that HE began! Maybe then will you understand the struggle that we endure, as well as the change he wished to implement.

I'll keep this real simple:

Ernesto "CHE" Guevara was a Stalinistic Murderer. He was Fidel Castro's excecutioner during the Revolution that began 1959 in Cuba in order to topple Batista's dictatorship. The cuban revolution seemed like a good idea because Batista was a cruel ruler. And so, the cuban people supported this. When Raul, Fidel's brother, recruited Che, this was to be a turning point in what people thought of the revolution. Some of the people who had witnessed the cruel executions by che were caught trying to escape. The next day, in order to show their little "Band of Brothers" of what happens to traitors to the revolution, the traitors are put through a firing squad and then to make sure they were dead, Che would always go up to them and deliver the final bullet into the forehead.

In some cases, reported from the CIA agent who commanded Che's excecution, Cuban mothers would come up "Che" and beg for one last glimpse of their sons at dawn, before Che could excecute them. Che agreed, just so the mothers would leave him alone, then he'd tell his comrades to bring those sons to be executed quickly.

This is how Ernesto Guevara was. He was never a romantic, freedom fighting hero. He was a MASS MURDERER. And a note to an earlier commenter: Che didn't leave cuba because he didn't like how the Cuban Revolution was going. He left because (THE TYRANT) Castro had assigned him a mission in Bolivia, Castro set him up, and the fool was excecuted. Just think, If Che would've gotten his way, given the fact that he was also popular than Fidel at the time, He would've created more Cruel Totalitarian governments in all of Latin America.

To all the people wearing his shirts, or fanning out his propaganda without knowing who he was, or at least know a little about him but in terms of Leftist views. Know that there is always two sides of a story, I suggest you check out the other.

Felix,

Where do you get your information? If you want people to check out both sides of the story, give us resources - books, documentaries, interviews, etc.

OKay there are a few things that I must address first. First things first contrary to what "satyagraha" has been telling you all Che was not a communist. When Raul had presuaded Che to join the Cuban revolution his major concern was that he would be affliated with the communist party. Also in the Spivak interview he talking about is where Castro denied that his brother had any affliation with the communist party. Lastly when one wants toi claim that they are speaking logically they must adhere to the rules of logic. Check (b) for obvious logical errors.
I have a few questions now. Okay so Che was a violent man, a murderer in fact. He killed his fellow fighters, citizens, and I wouldn't doubt if he killed small kittens. Yet he also was none the less probably the most important revolutionary figure ever to transend a revolution. Meaning that we still admire him, hate him, discuss him, he is still very active. Johnny Depp is wearing a necklace with Che on it, Owen Wilson discusses him in a recent interview, punks wear his shirts, college kids wear them as well. Even if Che is commercialized to the extent that preppy kids wear Che shirts is there any hope that it will spur some sort of interest in Che and eventually lead to some interest in our current goverment (I'm sorry to include you lucky bastards living out side of the U.S.) that is the gov. that I meant). I guess what I'm asking is there anyone out there that will see a positive result from any of this? Shouldn't we promote an understanding of Che? Or will it be overwhelmed by capitalist pigs seeking profit? Which is why I think that so many people wear Che shirts and not BinLaden. But then violence sells or does it only sell when it's on t.v., it will be interesting to see if this new movie with Del Torro will depict Che's violent side.
Should we admire the man for his dream side or should we condem him for his tactics? I'm torn
Also to those of you that are really serious about change I suggest looking into Noam Chomsky.

The "real" communists should be kicked out of this vast and beautiful country before they choke on the sweet air of freedom. Free market = free people.

>
> Free market = free people
>

Ripe with irony.

Please tell me where I can get some free people.

Free market = Free people because those on the bad end of the free market deal are slaves.

So yeah, they are free. Free to be bought and sold to the most powerful american corporations.

american? more like american't. Ha.

I dont get why ppl hate che. He was not an executioner he overlooked prisoners who were executed, approximately 500 prisoners died under his watch but he didnt kill anyone. So can someone tell me a very good explanation of why PPL HATE CHE because i want to know the p.o.v.--point of view of anyone

Fuck everyone here that doesnt like Che Guevara he was and still is a hero, his heroic acts and Cojones made him the famous person that he is and u cant say anything with out knowing exactly what he did and I dont think u do know that so u cant say I'm gonna wear a shirt that says fuck che because if ur Cuban-American and u wear a shirt like that ur a disgrace to all Cubans and Cuban-Americans like me. So if anything u should be saying fuck ur self not Che cuz u would never have the balls to do what he did so Fuck u!!!

You know what, Gemeni, you're right. I would never have the “balls” (as you so eloquently put it) to found labor camps full of AIDS victims and homosexuals, head firing squads, or fight to the death for a communist dictatorship. Does this next quote sound like compassion to you? "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become..." (Ernesto Che Guevara, "The Motorcycle Diaries"). Yes, armies must be prepared to defend a cause, but there's a difference between honor and dishonor, war for "freedom" and mass-execution. By the way, what happened when a popular clothing company recently tried to sell Che t-shirts in Miami (the home of little Havana)? Hundreds of CUBANS protested until the sale was repealed. So how can we (yes I am also a Cuban-American) be the disgrace if you are one of few that actually hail Che? Over the years, Che has been molded and changed from “an enemy of freedom into a symbol of freedom. He helped establish an unjust social system in Cuba and has been erected into a symbol of social justice.” I must note that Communism, while an idealistic form of government to some, it doesn’t work. It’s been proven. Take a look at Russia, China, and alas Cuba. There is only one future for a Communist government: a dictatorship run by the one man that had enough “balls” to take control of the doomed “utopia.” The only reason people “honor” this man is because they are afraid that if they don’t obey him, they will be imprisoned or murdered (take a look at Iraq before Sadam lost control). So don’t dare say that Che’s form of government was a good idea. It was Che who helped make Cuba what it is today: a country full of captive citizens that try to flee to the US everyday. And those that are caught are either imprisoned or killed (or imprisoned until they are so weak that they won’t live much longer anyways, like my great-grandfather). So don’t tell me to “fuck [myself]” for despising someone who started and lead the downfall of a country that no longer has the resources to save itself. I’m with John, I would buy a “Fuck Che” t-shirt and wear it everyday, if I could, because I believe in capitalism and would thus support it. So let me reiterate my above statement: every Cuban and Cuban-American I know loathes Che because of what he destroyed by creating socialism in Cuban, and we hate him even more because of how his “legend” lives on and fools others into believing that he was a good man. So, I hope you have a nice day. You are making matters worse by spreading his credo. You’re a disgrace to all Cuban-Americans.

By the way, you miss spelled Gemini, idiot. There is only one “e.” And, where did you learn grammar? Jesus Christ, there isn’t one fully coherent sentence in your entire criticism.

I think that this thread has just about reached its limit in legitimate, intellectual conversation. Obviously any Cuban-American is going to hate Che and Fidel. That's why they're Cuban-Americans and not Cubans. And people like me are always going to argue in favor of Che because, even though he wasn't perfect, he had an ideology that we believe in: Socialism. Whether you like it or not, I'm a Socialist, Helena is a Capitalist, and I doubt that any thread is going to change our minds about that, especially when the Che supporters appear to be idiots (Gemeni and Martin, you guys aren't really helping the cause.)

And Helena, all soldiers are cold blooded killing machines, that was not an idea unique to Che. Spend one day at an American boot camp and you'll see just how cold blooded your government makes your soldiers.

I recently saw a documentary on HBO with Oliver Stone where he followed Fidel for a few days, interviewed him, and interviewed Cubans. He interviewed a group of Cuban men who were caught hijacking a plane to escape to the USA. All of the men said the reason they were fleeing was because of economic reasons, not political. And who is to blame for most of Cuba's economic problems? America. Not only do we have an embargo on them, but we have threatened all of our allies that if they do business with Cuba, we won't do business with them. Cuba is not a failed science experiment by Che and Fidel. It was an experiment that could have potentially worked if the almighty hands of the US had just stayed clean for once in history. But they didn't. Our hands were soiled and the Cuban people are paying the price.

Not to say that all Cubans living there love their country. I know that's not the case, but you know what? I'm living in a country that I don't love. I've got a leader that I say is corrupt and evil. Maybe one day I'll be able to call myself an American-Canadian and wear a "fuck Bush" every day and talk about how fucked up my former country was. Wouldn't that be nice?

The point is, you can't satisify everyone with any government. You've got to play the hand you're dealt. Not to sound like an asshole, I plan on spending serious time in Guatemala and Mexico helpig wherever I can, but I think that arguing about whether a guy who died 30 years ago was good or bad has worn itself out. Now it's just the same shit over and over again, "Che was an executioner", "Che saved Cuba from Batista", "Che was awesome", "Che sucked". Find something new, both supporters and non-supporters.

Matt,

Thank you for being the voice of reason in all of this lately. I have been reading this site since September and concur with much of your analysis (though I could disagree with the lack of intellect among Che supporters as I consider myself one). If you can swing it, try to go to Cuba; it is an amazing experience.

I would encourage everyone in this debate to watch the video Matt mentioned - Commandante. It is enlightening. The prisoners had a remarkable take on their own situation. Also, read Che's words, his books, to find out who the man was and stood for. In order to truly get a full view of someone you need to know what they "said", not what others said they said.

che is one of the most important figures of revolutiono in the 20th century y wouldnt he be a legend

You can have a pacifist revolution, as they would fucking let you if you don't fight for it. Is it just me or is that the whole point in a revolution? Otherwise you would just say ' be a marxist'. and youd get a big FUCK YOU bakc from the enemy.

Im an Icelandic communist and ive read alot about communism and Ernesto "CHE" Guevara and I´ve developed the oppinion that i think he was in fact a great hero who faught for freedom even though I dont approve with all the acctions he used to get his way, but hey! how many people has Bush killed or other previous presidents the fact is that we dont know for sure. I also think that people who know absoloutly nothing about the man Che was should not wear his t-shirt or say that they have an oppinion, I´ve developed mine and done my research and I think that many others should do that two. Everyone has the right to have an oppinion but get your facts right first (and FYI Che was argentinian not Bolivian as some have said)

Hasta la victoria siempre!

George W. Bush approved the killings of over 145 people while governor of Texas. Not all executioners are seen as evil

I believe that Che Guevara started out as a good person with good intentions who was fighting for freedom, liberty and the end to imperialism, but that he got so caught up in keeping Cuba together he reacted violent and bad ways that killed many innocent people, and i think he should and could have done a bettr job when he was in cuba. I also believe that Che Guevara has been falsely publicized as a hero and revolutionary by people who have not given the time to properly research him. I also believe that he has been given too much blame by people who are against him for what has happened in Cuba, and that he would have never wanted such an oppressive corrupt government.

Well i wonder those people who want to wear fuck che tshirts if they ever did anything to make a change, but guess sitting on your tv all day long wondering who will a stupid so called reality show does make your head kind of blurry so i suggest you do tshirts written on them Fuck Me, cause that's all you will achieve in your life, fucking yourselves...

ive just been wondering how some people can be so much against communism specially Americans. Communism in theory is everything but bad, it just has never worked correctly. And I just want to say to u Americans who are so against communism: try to learn something about it and give it a chance becaus communsim is what the world needs not the fucking capitalism that only helps rich people to get richer and poor people to get poorer!!!! And that is what Che saw. He saw that gap betwen the rich and poor and knew that revoulution was needed!!!!Che lives!!

Che was no saint. Just a good man with a good idea, who realised that sometimes you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Or a revolution without shooting a few class enemies. So it goes.

However, he was prepared to die for what he believed in. He believed that if you dish it out, you have to be prepared to take it, and he did.

That's a damn sight more than that draft dodging baboon George W Bush ever believed in.

I'm really amazed that anyone can make an argument for communism anymore. Sure, if it worked in reality the way it works on paper it would be fine. But the only way it could work in reality is if everyone living under it were mindless automatons. The individuality of the people is not taken into serious account when discussing how a communist system should work. Indeed, most communist experiments in the modern world continue to implement a sort de-individualization of its citizens. It's the only way for the leaders to maintain power in a system that does less to elevate everyone to the same level as it does to hold every one down to the same level. Considering that we are not, and should have no desire to be automotons, it is simply impossible for communism to work.
Also, saying that the ends justified the means, or that being "prepared to die for what you believe" are both weightless arguments. Imprisoning people for there beliefs, killing of innocents... all in the name of a proven unworkable system? It seems to me neither his "ends" nor his "means" were justifable. And, in the end, many tyrants have died for what they believed too. Doesn't make it right.

CHE GUVERA WAS A HERO
WITHOUT HIM PEOPLE WOULD DIE
LET HIS LEGEND LIVE ON!!!
CHE WAS A TRUE HERO SO WAS FIDEL\

YOU ALL SHOULD LEARN SOMTHING!!!
RIDE BMX
LISTEN TO JIMI HENDRIX
AND WEAR CHE SHIRTS
THEY PROMOTE WHAT HE DID!!! AS A LEGEND!

Ive been reading this page for over an hour now and Ive got to say that its given me a lot food for thought (especially the relentless rebukes from eric).

Having read a book on Che Guevara (a friend of mine had returned from a holiday in Cuba with the "Tshirt" and asked me what he was about - I didnt know so decided to read up!)I found myself with nothing but total admiration for the guy.

I live in England and therefore have grown up in a typical capitilist society. I'l admit that I have always found the Marxist ideals of communism to be a beautiful idea, but something that cannot work - I cannot think of one communist government that ever held everyone on the same level (the guy at the top always gets the biggest slice of the cake, which goes against the very thing that communism stands for. By comparison, Capitilism is quite an ugly ideology - but its one that works for those that live by its rules.

Anyway - my appreciation of Guevara does not come from the marxist views that he held so dear, but purely due to his attitude and the fact that he stood by his principles.

He was an anti-imperialist who was fed up with being told what to do by richer stronger outsiders. Whilst most people would roll over and obey the "bigger man", Che refused to do so and stood his ground. Once he obtained a degree of power within the Castro set up he could have opted for the easy life and lived a little easier (as most Socialist dictators would do)yet he didnt. When he realised that Socialist reform wasnt working the way he wanted it to and that Cuba had become a Russian pawn instead of an American one, he left and turned his attention to other parts of Latin America that he could help. Even when rationing was introcduced in Cuba, he refused to take more than his share unlike the majority of government officials.

I guess the one weakness in the mans character was that he did kill, but I look at Che Guevara and consider how he could have gone about the way of being a killer. Che was not a cowardly terrorist hiding behind a mask. He spoke out in public and was an easily recognisable figure in world polictics. Nor was he a "desk" general sending people to die for his beliefs from the safety of his office. Che was a fighter who stood shoulder to shoulder with the very soldiers he commanded. He who lives by the sword, will die by the sword - Che certainly did.

That is at least my view - but Ive enjoyed the arguments on this site and would welcome anyone who wishes to educate me with their point of view - theres nothing worse than not having all the facts.

Woodsta...

Thanks for sharing your views.

I guess for me the main question is do we change the world by force, or by changing our lifestyles.

It is true that Che lived by his ideals. But I think Che himself -- were he alive today -- might point out that his approach simply didn't work. None of the countries in which he fought became significantly richer or more prosperous. And few people would argue that a country like Angola (extended guerrilla conflicted) is any better off than, say, North Korea (no guerrilla conflict).

Relative to other military leaders and "revolutionaries," Che certainly distinguishes himself by his integrity and his ideals. Unfortunately, the successful military/political model is still based on both Sun Tzu AND Machiavelli. Che may have had the Sun Tzu part, but his ideals caused him to take a path that was essentially suicidal.

Again, the irony here is that Che has become the most convenient, accessible, watered-down, and meaningless symbol of revolution in our Capitalist society. A man who was considered the epitome of substance and integrity has become the symbol of choice for fair weather revolutionaries and mindless hipsters.

This is less about Che, and more about how pop culture is more concerned with intentions than outcomes.

The sad truth is that few individuals exercise any significant amount of actual personal control over the course of political affairs. I wouldn't say we live in a Hobbesian Leviathan, but it's close.

If we are to survive as a species, it will require following the example of those who are able to end violence, not merely to use it for a supposedly noble cause like setting up a socialist dictatorship.

Quite simply, people cannot drive cars, watch TV, have fancy things AND live in a benevolent welfare state. But, ultimately, if people choose to live wastefully, somebody is gonna get wasted in the process. That's just how it is.

Communism has only killed 100 million people... let's give it another chance!

I love Che Guevara forever!!!
I will follow up Che's step print and support communist forever!!!!

Long live Che!!

I'm a woman, I'm from China.
I love Che very much.

I hate all above people who said that Che is a stupid man. What do you know about Che? do you think that anti Che or Anti Comunist is a COOL thing? you think that will make you more diffrent with other young man? It's you who is really stupid!!!

Long live Che!

Ok, Che wasnt a saint. He did what he felt was right, people where killed and im sure many where innocent people. I dont think one supporter of Che would go along with that being a good idea. Cuba is now in abit of a state but its had better time than it did with its old almost autocratic government. Che did kill, he orderd excutions but for the greater good. What greater good you ask? Well good old America got involved with its usual brand of foreign policy (Vietnam, Iraq, Anywhere where they speak funny really). For those of you who are clearly dumbasses it was sarcasm. I dont beleive that people looking up to, wearing t-shirts or respecting ches ideas is a bad thing. He stood for freedom, the right to stand up for what you beleive and in my opinion a character like him is a good example to anyone who has now realised that Bush style politics is the brainwashes, the one that doesnt allow the poor to progress just becuase they where born poor. Im not saying that if there where more Che's in the world things would suddenly be better. But for some of the people on here who claim that communism is one of the biggest murderers ever, just look at capitolisms track record. There arnt many wars in modern histroy that where caused by greed, money...COUGH...oil and what not. Che fought for equality and freedom. Just something to consider

Oh lord have Mercy!

People are really stupid. Just stupid.
The man is a hero a freedom fighter something most of you know NOTHING about. He will always live through people like me, and his words will be rememberd for now and forever.
"Passion is needed for any great work, and for Revolution passion and audacity are requird in big doses".

my hero!
don't care what you stupid once think the world is the way its is because of people like you.

I'm a freedom fighter as well thanks to Ernesto Che Guevara, and guess what you get in my way oh boy I'm like a walking reser you better watch your side I'm Dangers.

I will pray for you!

in the name of KING OF KINGS LORD OF LORDS THE LION OF JUDAH THE EMPRERE OF ETHIOPIA KIGNS HAILE SELASSIE THE 1st. I and I.

Che, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Marcus M. Garvy, MLK, MX, Mandela ETC...

Men who belived in dreams, and make dreams come true.

You ignorant little boys seating in you little living rooms or bedrooms whatever, playing on momi's or dady's computer, never have to go get nothing of your own! Now you think your man and woman enough to write your stupid and untrue opinions on the Internet. I bet your parents were raised the same way as you. You will never know war until your shot and wounded, you will never know pain until you have been colonized, you will never know FREEDOM until your from a foreign country. Most part of the western world better have nothing to complain about because you people really have it made and always had it. I personally think that I’m blessed to see these things, and know the history about this people my history. I completely understand when you can’t relate to things as well, because you have never been though what they have been through, even being and man and standing up for what you believe takes a man with big balls. And quite frankly I think the time for all great men are OVER its time for parasites such us Bush and Castro.

And speaking of killer or killers hhummm..

Let see.

Che - Killed!
Bob Marley - toe cancer? Died of that? (Never heard before) for a man with money I bet he could buy another leg with all that money.
Peter Tosh - Killed (by someone he knew but never been caught) interesting.
MLK - killed (no one knows)
MX - killed (no one knows) I think fercon did it.
Tupac - Killed (no one know) only 25 years old.
Marcus Garvy - killed (no one knows)
Mandela - 28 years in jail for nothing.

So who is the killer? Ha?
My guess is that if you speak your mind? You know that you have it coming.

Che: www.funkyribbons.com

Anyone wearing a Che T-shirt is a goof.

Cool Che shirt!!!

Got any shirts with Himmler's image on them? How about Jeffrey Dahmer?

To the morons who keep excusing what Che did: Che DID murder people, and no, I'm not talking about those he killed in combat (he wasn't even a very good soldier btw, he sucked as a commander). He butchered innocent people (mostly Cuban peasants) and put still more people into labor camps. He was a disgusting human being and I'm glad he's dead. FUCK CHE!! DEATH TO COMMUNISM!! LONG LIVE FREE ENTERPRISE!!

I was born and raised in Palma Soriano, Cuba. I came to the states about 5 years ago and I thank the lord everyday that i am able to live in a place where i can say what the fuck i wanna say, go where ever i want to go and not have the miltary hunt me down.
What we are doing, having a debate on this man, voicing our opinions and stating our views is excatly everything Che disagreed on. Once you figure that out..then maybe you'll see a different view.

Che was an enemy of freedom, and yet he has been erected into a symbol of freedom. He helped establish an unjust social system in Cuba and has been erected into a symbol of social justice. He stood for the ancient rigidities of Latin-American thought, in a Marxist-Leninist version, and he has been celebrated as a free-thinker and a rebel.
Alot of people that i personally know wil argue with me about EL CHE and they have no idea what it feels like to have no opinion, to have no say, to have no freedom to believe in god, and they think its a joke. They dont know what its like to live in communism. thats why alot of the Che Supporters are mistaken by a cult a trend around this man. Sure when i was in Cuba i learned that Fidel and Che were heros, leaders, patriots for our country but when i came to America and found out what democracy was and the real facts about Che is when i realized that i have been mistaken and "brainwashed" into thinking Che was our hero.

Mr Maris, no pienses que vives libre ahora
you think you know these so called real facts about El Che now this man left his comfort to go fight for what he believed in now. I know that you had the missfortune of living under a certain sistem that has made you biased but let me ask you if you lived in Cuba when Batista ruled? If you did
then tell me the level of so called freedom to say whatever you liked existed then. If you understand that El Che fought to change that sistem then how can u say he was an enemy of freedom. Look back at Cuba before the revolucion and tell me that it was so much better than now. Quien te dijo' que you dont have freedom to believe in God in Cuba, no me hablas mierda, Cuba has many churches, far more now than before the revolucion para que sepas. It is dam hard to live in Cuba right now if u have no outside income and this 18 per ciento de mi dinero shit is rough but don't act as though you dont know that it's america that's putting this pressure on Cuba through this embargo just so people like you will turn against the revolucion and spread info like che was a murderer. Come on, look for yourself, do the acts of Che fit the profile of a mindless murderer? He fought for what he believed he never liked the idea of "I work like hell and you do nothing and get paid. let's get paid together or not get paid at all" He went into the cane fields with his fellow man just to show the message. don't put you're hate on Che cause u had a hard time in Cuba he lived his dream Luchando hasta la victoria siempre, so live you're own life don't look to you're side and say "fuck che" thinking you know something about him cuando "realmente no sabes nada de el"

Ustedes piesan que saben todo de todo y ahora que viven comodos en Los Estados Unidos pueden hablar mierda del Che. Ya han olvidado de la patria. A mi El Che siempre Sera' un heroe so Fuck all yall. When you are long dead he will live on for his deads entonces Chupa mi pinga yuma, y vete pa' la pinga maricon. No tengo miedo, para que sepas, estoy dispuesto a matar la persona que piensa que pueda pasar por mi calle bien vestido in his fuck Che shirt. Te voy a matar y puedes hablar con el Che y decirselo en su cara si tienes cohones y pinga.

Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.

You can say that again!

OK!

Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.
Che Guevara was a piece of shit.

yeah,yeah...dont cry for me, argentina...you all realize that youre arguing about someone who is currently not giving a rip about what your view on his life is? Wear them trendy shirts, wave your cuban flags, whatever works for you...me,i just think ill live my life in peace, amongst those i love.

So you people dont give up this man is already dead , when u mother fuckers die , yall be nothing but bones in the
grave .Asi que cuiadado lo que disen del che. Por que remember lo que dijo u are all cowards u people type shit about this man but let me tell u something, have u been in an army mother fuckers i killed and i had seen
dead bodies in my eyes .So wat im i a survivor thats what iam.

Does who talk shit about Che, shall die just like him, so enough about his tshirts, LET THIS MAN REST IN PEACE>)..

ok seriously guys this man no matter wat u say stood up for wat he belived in, u may think wat he believed in was screwed up or warped but thats your own opinion che changed latin america we gave latin america the power to change although latin america didnt take this power and use it to thier advantage. wat pisses me off is that some of u are bad mouthin che saying he didnt do anything, he went out there he changed something can any of u say u changed something i fucking doubt it, wats sad is taht ur sitting at ur computer thinking your all cool bad mouthing pplz hero, whos your fucking hero.....bush......lmfao oh btw chicho ppl who watch evita are fags that fucking movie was the worst piece of crap any director could put together. the truth is that che took cuba away from a dictator corrupted beyond belife and gave cuba to another dictator not as bad but still bad i do not stand for che but i also dont stand for fatasses who sit at thier computer trying to make ppl who have sombody to look up to feel like crap

Did Che kill alot? Yes
Did he fight for a good reason? To many people yes.

Many also say the same about Hitler and Stalin.

To the idiot Blanche who way up on this page said:

"There is no absolute truth to this issue. It is like trying to convince a Christian that God is not real. The belief comes from the inside".

Saying 'there is no absolute' IS AN ABSOLUTE. That is a totally self-negating statement. THINK before you TYPE.

How about a restatement...

The only absolute is that there is no absolute.

With all due respect to the Cuban-Americans (my sister-in-law happens to be one) and the die-hard defenders of Che ... I was born and raised in "Sovied occupied" Afghanistan and, as such, have lived on both sides of the curtain wall. I lived in a world where a man like Che was revered and, naturally, my curiosity was aroused. Despite the fact that I was living under the "oppresive, Soviet-backed puppet regime", I could not help but see the truth in his words and, more importantly, his actions. I came of age with my government perpetually attempting to indoctrinate me into 'socialism' while my family, friends and countrymen were showered with cluster bombs and RPGs and our land was riddled with land mines. Now, being an American citizen, I am proud to admit that, having lived in a "capitalist" society with all of its perceived freedoms, the words of Che still ring true .. "It is better to die standing than to live on your knees."

Well for all those Guveros....Comrades first of all a heratly red Salute!!!
First of all for all those Hypocrites who dont even know the full name of Che: Its "Comrade. Dr. Erneston Che Guvera". He was doctor born in Argentina,.. Bought revolutionary change in Cuba against Fascist regime... started Revolution in Africa tooo... finaly became Immortal in Bolivia. U can see for him there was no boundary for Justice.Whole world was under one same roof for him. he left his job and fought for the justice all over the world. Not like you greedy capitalist who alwayz cheats other Workers to earn wealth.
And you Slaves of america you know nothing but to cheat and rule others. yO' all america is a slow poison tryin to establish its Imperialism all over the world.
Those who has self respect and soveirginity won't fall down upon this cruel capitalist. CIA was so afraid of Che' tht those cowards tried to kill him and also fidel castro...many times.. from back. U sukers!!!
Wht is the menaing of your life if u only live for yourself... You have ear but you become deaf against injustice...eye but blind against injustice...hands but handicapped against injustice. You should fight for you rights and wont let you sovierginity go down.
Beware of felling Injustice commited against anyone in any part of world:CHE
the crux ..the bottom line is tht there is no future for capitalist... Guvera rules foreva and as a role model for all the Reloution in this living planet. You all sucka's are jealous of him...cos you all capitalist can't dig it...
Fuck Capitalsim and fuck Bush.

You can get a Fuck Che shirt.

Other anti Che stuff, too.

www.cafepress.com

and

www.cafepress.com

respectively.

to all the cubans that have wriiten to add to this long list of anti che blog, good for you but atleast make yourself sound respectable instead of saying fuck every other word. im cuban and i know what che did and all the autrocitys he commited. for all you who hate the man theres a website called thoseshirts.com that have great t-shirts i think you will like.

I just have a quick question.. I'm doing a report on Che after Cuba, while he was in Bolivia. I was wondering if anyone could tell me that the Latin American perspective was during the late 60's when the US was involved in this whole thing?

i suppose that except a few who admire che, the rest lack brain convolutions to think.sorry to say that.can any one tell me about che'ideas,beleifs and his contribution to his nation

che is and hot and he IS a peice of bull shit

Well the question of whether Che Guevara was good or bad has been something I've pondered and researched for a long time. Being Colombian, I have seen many good reasons to hate him (Most Colombians associate him with the Marxist Guerillas that infest the countryside), but however reasons to like him (Colombia's 55% poverty rate). All in all I have found that Che Guevara while a radical was the product
of radical injustice which was the poverty that was and still is rampant in Latin America. I feel that more should be done to favor the poor of the third world because whether you like it or not, for the millions that are dying without healthcare (In Colombia, you WILL get kicked to the curb if you dont have healthcare) and other poor, Marxism is their only hope. A poor one perhaps but the only one. As of now, the US is not helping nor will it help relieve the poverty of Latin America because it's just businesses that are
outsourced there so that it can pay workers there substandard wages and have workers with no rights (When you get the chance, find out what Coca Cola does to strikers). To avoid Marxism, more has to and can be done. As for people who would say that no matter what, Che was evil, remember that if you're American, the place where your house stands once had Native Americans on it until they were murdered and displaced by the people on our currency as well as other fellow slaveholders. So yea thats that and remember that evil is a very fluid concept once you get into philosophy.

P.S.: The US gives only 0.16% of it's earnings to aid poverty in Africa. WTF is that??

If I'm not mistaken, most of North AND South America was inhabited by native people until the 16th century, when it was invaded and colonized. Some of South America has more indigenous people than others, but South America also experienced invasion and colonization.

With regard to the U.S. being stingy, one must separate the government aid from private donations. While it is true that we are not the most generous, we are not completely stingy. Also, we are rich but we do have poverty and non-poverty injustices (environment, criminal justice, etc) to fight. Also, I'm not sure America being bad means Che is good. Both can be bad. But I do agree that it's not that simple. Most people are a mix of good and bad, if you wanna see things in that way.

My problem with Che is that he was a soldier and a killer, and we shouldn't glorify and romanticize it. If you want to glorify or romanticize his ideals or philosophies... fine. Unfortunately, his ideas don't distinguish him as a political thinker.

Seems to me that most of you got Che a lil twisted. He fought and lead his army of rebels to LIBERATE CUBA!!!! not to murder for know reason.Ernesto (Che)Was a real man .To the guy that said he would smash our heads with a rock, I'll be wareing the beanie ASSHOLE!!!

Being a Bolivian (with family there and in Argentina) living in the US, I'm always interested in the few figures that are widely recognized in the States. Che piques my interest because of the drastic changes he brought about. I think that's one thing we can all agree upon.

A quick history of Ernesto, compiled from various nerd channel specials:

Ernesto was born in Argentina to a middle class family, and studied to a doctor (there is no proof he completed his studies). Another interesting fact about him is that he had serious asthma. He then traveled across South America because although he was well read about far off countries, he knew nothing about his own continent. Through these travels, he met people of every walk of life and especially favored the lower classes and the indigenous people (with whom I have lived). This starts to form his political views, although he was already naively an idealist.

Soon, he gets involved with Jacobo Arbenz's United Fruit Company in Guatemala, and is exiled to Mexico after the US's coup d'etat of Arbenz's rule.

Then, in Mexico, Ernesto encounters Fidel Castro. He then joins Castro's efforts to overthrow Batista, although he is one of the few socialists taking part in the movement. The majority of the participants were fighting for a democratic Cuba, including Castro himself. Once the revolution had taken place and Castro was in power, Che worked as the Minister of Economics, and then Industries.

Immediately after this coup, the United States decides to get involved not only because they supported Batista, but also Cuba had been a reliable supplier of goods, especially sugar.

Now here is where things get messy. Castro obviously runs Cuba the way he wants to - as a dictatorship. He just wanted power, and he got it. I like to believe that Che naively believed in the socialist ideals, but you're entitled to your own opinion of what went on behind the scenes (Hey, some of his men described him as a psychopath because he was so sadistic).

Anyway, after Cuba, he led revolutions in several other countries, some successful, some not. Soon, Che ends up in Bolivia, where the US has caught up with him and is supporting the existing government. Many of you have asked for clarification on his death, well here it is:

Che had been captured by a cooperation of the CIA and the Bolivian Army, where he was captive in a small shed and interrogated, until finally they decided to execute him. The poor sap who was to kill him was just some nobody soldier from the Bolivian Army, and to top it off, he was drunk and scared. When he hesitated to shoot, Che shouted at him, "Shoot, coward. You're only going to kill a man."

Although I condone violence to push change, I think it's just plain stupid to bash someone's head in with a rock because they wear something you don't like.

In my opinion, it was an advantage for Che to be as cold as he was. He actually enjoyed killing, although he was obviously functional as an average human being. I think that in instances such as wars, making a reputation and an example will also spread fear. Bad for your opposition, good for you.

To me, Che is an icon not because of the details of what he did, but what he stood for (Icon. Derrrr). So he stands for change, revolution, and the underdog. I would say nonconformity, but everyone conforms by wearing that shirt, kind of like the goth kids dressing the same to not dress the same as preps.

I make my own Che shirt out of a reconstructed shirt I get for free, and a downloaded stencil. If you're gonna stick it to the man, don't pay him first.

That's right. Stick it to the man.

Ernesto Guevara is plastered on the shirts of thousands of trend-following capitalizing pigs. The same shirts that over-run and flood the streets with their brand name schemes and over-zealous catchphrases are the same shirts that when in style produce "Che" shirts. ERNESTO WOULD NOT HAVE AGREED WITH THIS. HE WAS A FREE MIND - A COMMUNIST WITH A PASSION. His ideals are INFRINGED by these shirts. To fully understand what Ernesto had been trying to prove all along wasn't only for the liberation of the people literally- but mentally too. You must free yourselves from traps set by officials and lies.

I heard about Ernesto through a band, one I will keep name-less, which in turn had motivated me to read up on numerous political figures. I have read nearly every published work on Ernesto to this date, (and I would gladly be proved wrong!)and I have never PURCHASED a CHE SHIRT. IRONIES AND OXYMORONS cloud the name.

How can an honest communist or even leftist buy into such a commercial scheme and portray an image on their shirt. You need to prove to people what you are with your ACTIONS and THOUGHTS; your shirt proves only what you BUY, not who you ARE.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Ok here you go for those of you hard core christian conservatives.

Jesus Christ is a Communist

Just take some time and think about it =)

Is Che Guevaras idol status justifyied through his killings?

Che Guevara had no special talents other than a taste for killing. This made him useful to Castro for a time, but he outlived his usefulness. Read about his time in Bolivia and you'll realise he was not a great guerilla revolutionary. Being a foreigner in a successful revolution, then going off to fight in other countries, writing about his experiences, being quite attractive in appearance, dying young, these made Che the icon he is today.

Or is that an exaggeration? Well, it's hard to tell, everyone who knew him has an agenda...perhaps he wasn't so bad, perhaps he was

He was a ruthless murderer and a coward.

Stop glorying him, idiot leftists.

the greatness of a medico student like che was tht he transcended the boundaries of nations volunteered himself to the cause of the people dreamt and worked for communist party even his death only glorified his thoughts and he became an icon for liberation across the world. some friends use the word fuck to say an opinion but they stoop the level of the same capitalist people who may use any slander to tarnish the great ppl. if u can do something good for society u can do it otherwise just shut up.

Anytime you have such a drastic reversal in power, where the wealthy ruiling class is ousted in favor of the people that were once the victims of the unbalanced distribution of wealth and opportunity; you will have people that are disgruntled. (see expatriate anti-castro cubans) The US has been manipulating the world ever since the revolutionary government refused to negotiate pro-us policies in Cuba; Castro made a stand for his people and their dignity. In return for not giving into pro US internal/foreign policies, cuba has been subjected to 45+ years of unfair treatment in the world trade markets. The US uses its might to corrupt the balance of social justice to the point that it denies its own people basic food stuffs in order to feed their children. Che Guevara was a man that believed in social justice, believed in it to the point that he lived it; Che Guevara is the most complete man ever.
How can we expect this 'Me' generation to understand the concept of sacrifice? As long as they have their IPods, and name brand clothes to numb their minds, the cycle will continue. The revolution begins inside each of us, get up, stand up!

Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

"In the abundance of water, only the fool is thirsty" - Bob Marley

The other day I heard somebody say, "what is so good about che?" The person standing next to him said, "Man, he was an awesome guerilla fighter who killed a shit load of people." Hearing that made me think the same thought i have been having; Our culture has totally missed the main message of Che Guevara. Yes, he did murder thousands of people, and yes he did help establish the Cuba we see today. But dont overlook the fact that above all else, he wanted to spread the message of a better life for many people. My main point is that unless people do some research before they form their opinions, nobody will ever agree on this topic.

Please, don't get these whinny American-Cubans started. Their minds are diseased from the propaganda their self containing hateful communities breed. They truly are a sick group. Che was Honorable in that he fought for what he beleived. Many, who value people over goods look to him for inspiration. Want a good read? cubasocialista.com helps people understand the sick mind of the American-Cuban exile. I've lived in Miami, I've been to cuba, I used to beleive the exile's BS. I saw the truth with my owm eyes. The cuban American exiles are delusional!!!!!!

To Proudly Pro-Life,

George Bush and Ronald Reagan are ruthless murderers and cowards. Stop gloryfying them. Idiot, hillbilly, right winged inbred. Time to get out of hick town and progress.

These little rich white college kids in the village wearing che guevara shirts not knowing what he stood for... freedom fighter? Since when is there any freedom in Cuba? let me know..I'm a Cuban I go to visit my family once sometimes twice a year.. My people still collect rations, live like they're still in the 40s or 50s, no A/C, cars that break down every month, Kids so skinny that you can almose see their organs through the skin. People say that in Cuba everyone is equal.. if everyone is equal so should their leader & government right? if everyone is equal everyone has a say right? then why does Fidel live in a palace and the Cuban people live in buildings that still have the bulletholes from his so called " revolution ".. buildings that still are blown half off from bombs from back in 1959. a revolution is a change for good. Batista was a horrible man, but he's an angel compared to Fidel. Men & Women do years in rat infested overcrowded prisons and then executed for opposing Fidel. His People suffer while he wines & dines on the finest foods from around the world. He even taxes the family members of Cubans to bring them gifts, medicines, clothes In the airports they open your bags to check if you bring gifts for your family and tax you for it. Now I know must of you are going to say I'm a George W. Bush supporter how can I support Bush when he banned us from going to cuba to visit our family? Now We can only go once every 3 years or we lie and say we are going for religious purposes but if caught we can be arrested or fined just for going to visit our suffering familys. Che Guevara helped him build this so called " revolution " and if Che Guevara was so damned brave & a fighter how come he lost every battle he had in panama, bolivia, nicaragua.. He had to retreat every time. Then killed by the CIA while he begged for his life.. I thought it was socialismo o muerte? socialism or death? Why would he beg for his life and not die for his beliefs? Because he was a coward, but then again what do you rich white yuppy kids know, living in your manshions, frustrated with your lives, wearing Che shirts & drinking your starbucks coffee rebels without a clue. Fidel & Che murdered thousands of innocent women & children, executed men who didn't want to join their " REVOLUTION ". There is no freedom in Cuba. Get a Visa, learn some spanish for you white people, go to Cuba but not to the tourist spots Fidel made for you, but go around Cuba go to the towns ask people how they feel about Che & Fidel & the so-called revolution, some might not answer afraid for their lives, but some who don't care will. You will get your answer. You want a revolution, go to the military get some damn training, get together a couple of cubans let's go to Cuba and free them if your so revolutionary. The Cuban people need HOPE.without freedom there is no life, without life no joys of freedom, without hope there is no purpose in accomplishing anything, without accomplishing anything there is no way to win your freedom, with no way to win your freedom, there is no hope, with no hope , no freedom get the picture? The day a man or woman or group of people give Cubans HOPE for freedom and lead them. I will wear his shirt, but Che was not a freedom fighter, because if he was..wouldn't the Cuban people be free? Get a Visa, Learn Some Spanish, Go to Cuba, Don't go to the Tourists spots, ask the public of Cuba what they think of their leader & the so called revolution. VIVA EL SUENO DE UNA CUBA LIBRE LIBERTAD LIBERTAD LIBERTAD LIBERTAD CUBA LIBRE AMOR PARA MI ISLA CUBANA NO HAY REVOLUCION SIN LIBERTAD ABAJO CON FIDEL CASTRO LIBERTAD O MUERTE

Those of you that only knows the side of Che Guevara that Fidel Castro has been selling to the world, as a tool to promote his revolution, should read a little bit more about how Che Guevara supported, and agree with steps that Castro took after 1959, to consolidate his total grip on power.

Some of those steps that Ernesto Guevara agree with was eliminating all the others running political parties in Cuba, eliminating the open media and creating only one source of information state run media, just to mention some of the many steps taking by Castro and supported by Guevara

I don’t care how much of an idealist and how much of a sacrificed he made to fallow his believe, once he agree with the steps that Cleary were design to oppress a population and establish a dictatorship, he become one of those guys that I proudly will wear on a T-shirt with a red cross on his face and the words. FUCK YOU CHE !!!

I haven’t event mention in my argument the innocent people he sent to their death en la cabaña, a building located in Havana Cuba where he was in charge of a revolutionary court.

So before you wear your Che t-shirt again learn your history well, so you can be sure you stand for what the guy in your t-shirt stood for.

There are so many opinions, so many supposed statistics but no data or sources posted to back them up. I bet some of you were taught Che is a good man, others were surrounded by talk that Che was a bad man. There have been and always will be two opposing views to this mans life and motives. Since every story has two sides, please try to read Che's actual words then read the views that oppose his idealism. The facts, the data and the history are the power. Not from one sided sources, not from others opinion. Compare what you read and see how it adds up. I'd love to see some opinions based on valid sources and facts on here. THAT is power and that is a true opinion. Who knows maybe some of you did that, however no sited evidence was ever posted.

I don't belive how can you people be so ignorant! All i hear is that che kill innocent people and all that stuff.

Think a moment about it, most of you live in a country that murder and torture people just for oil, banned directors like Michael Moore, assassin great leaders as Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, then call yourselves like a nation of justice and freedom.

Guess what, I think the United States need someone like Che Guevara, a man who stand against all of this coward actions and try make a better world, whit good education, healt care, equal rights and food to everybody. He try to do that in Cuba, Congo, Guatemala, and finaly Bolivia, the place that he get kill by bolivian soldiers, probaly commanded by CIA agents.

So next time you talk about Che think that he gives is life for a cause he belive was the best! Let me ask you, do you give your life for what you belive?

I'm aware of the fact that Guevara was pro-violence (you can read it in his diary, so he didn't hide it) but he was only pro violence if it had a greater goal, namely a revolution to achieve freedom.

In his biography, I have read that he did kill people but only if it was to protect his own men.
For example a traitor was discovered in Guevaras group and Che let him go. A lot of his men got murdered because of this decision. From than on, Che had to execute this traitors.

I don't think anyone of you knows that Castro, Gueavara and there men always took care of the wounded soldiers of the enemy, Batista didn't care about his own wounded men. Che, who was actually the doctor in the group, always took care of them and let them go. That's very noble.

The soldiers of Batista that were killed by Castro and his men had chosen to be a soldier and were often asked if they wanted to join the guerillas or desert their army instead of being killed. Che and Castro were good men.

I wouldn't wear a Che Guevara T-shirt because I think that's just commercial, but I am proud that I am a fan of him and his ideas.

francisco my frien, you are totally right. but let those fucking american ignorants speak... don´t forget they elected george dictator bush, poor little stupid and ignorant guies...
freedom is their flag, but cruelty is their action.
VIVA CUBA!!
VIVA LA REVÓLUCION!!
CUBA VENCERÁ!

andre to be against what Che Guevara and what the Cuban dictatorship of Castro represent, you don't have to be american, alot of people around the world are against dictatorship and I'm one of those writting from Toronto, Canada.
CUBA SI !!!
CASTRO NO!!!
ABAJO LA DICTADURA!!!

If Cuba had equal access to fair world trade, do you think that the living conditions might be a little better than they are now? Think about it! Fidel is doing what he can with what he has. I HAVE been to Cuba, for 2 months I was drove around Cuba speaking with people, staying in their homes, eating their foods, LISTENING to them. Of course they all have different ideas about how to make a better Cuba; but until the government has fair access to world trade/aid what can they do? They become desperate to fill in the gaps, at the expense of other things that we in the western world take for granted. Cuba Libre said: "and if Che Guevara was so damned brave & a fighter how come he lost every battle he had in panama, bolivia, nicaragua." First of all, what does one persons 'bravery' have to do with winning a battle? When did Che fight in Panama, or Nicaragua? Get your facts straight. One person cannot do all the work, EVERYONE has to make a change, first within themselves, then in their communities, then in the world. Forget what the bitter 1st and 2nd generation Cuban-Americans are saying. The only research that they do on the subject, is listening to the once-ruiling class of Cuba cry about what they lost. Bob Marley might have said it best: "Slave driver, the tables have turned." Why did Batista loot the National Bank Of Cuba on his way out of town? Why did the Americans want to discuss relations with the new revolutionary government right after the victory? Before Fidel, Cuba was a floating WHOREHOUSE, now at least people have equal access to education. More than any useless american can say; heck even Oprah knows how shitty the US education system is. Ask the US pharmaceutical industry why they are applying for more and more licenses to do business with the Cuban pharm. industry. Read a fucking book, get a clue, stop regurgitating what you see on TV.
Che Lives

yerMa, it’s great that you traveled Cuba for two months and got so well informed about Cuban people and their issues.

Since I was born, lived and traveled Cuba for 27 years of my life, I may have just a little bit of a different perception and understandings of the Cuban issue than you do. (Not better, just different)

So, since you stated well that getting information from difference sources is the best way to be informed, let me share with you my take on some of the issues you pointed out and then you can make your own conclusions.

I think that government of Cuba is mainly to blame for where the Cuban economy is at today. Since the earliest years of Castro taking power, he became so comfortable with being a trading partner with the Soviet Union, that the Cuban economy became totally dependent on the Soviets, so therefore the majority of the products that circulate in Cuba were Soviet built and produced and were traded to the island for sugar cane, which I think is a bad format to do business because not only does it tie almost every level of one country economic to another, but as a consequence, it restricts you from developing the necessary vision to understand and enhance your business skills in a more competitive global market .

In my view, Cuba suffered a similar fate to what could had happen to a person that restricts itself to doing business with just his next door neighbor; once the neighbor dies his household economy goes down too

I give you that the U.S blockade may cut Cuba from some needed products, but really it gave Castro the perfect justification for the country’s underperforming economy instead of his bad management skills. We should keep in mind that foreign investments today are well established in Cuba, from hotel chains representing the richest countries in Europe to factories and oil companies, including countries like Canada.

Medical care may be better than some countries, but you really need to be a tourist or have some close relative or friend working in a tourist clinic or an elite Havana hospital to be able to have a real access to our health care system. Otherwise, your choices are pretty much under supplied, not well sanitized (because of a lack of sanitized products); and in desperate need of repair. Clinics and hospitals like these are the ones familiar to the ordinary Cuban. Case in point, on your next trip to Cuba take a look at a regular Cuban hospital out of the area of Havana or Varadero, like in my home town of Cardenas, Matanzas. That will give you a standard of what the health care system is for the everyday Cuban people.

I think credit should be give where credit is due and Castro did a great job taking education to the deepest areas of Cuba making sure the majority of the Cuban people weren’t iliterate. And I totally agree with you about getting rid of the dictator Batista who kept Cuba as a floating gambling and whorehouse of the US like you well put it. Therefore, many of us believe that what Castro and Che fought for was the right cause. But once they took power, some of the steps they started taking began restricting the freedoms of ordinary Cubans (5 posts above yours, is my take on Che).

How bravely they fought and how worth it was the cause, can’t justified the lack of freedom that the Cuban people are being submitted to under Castro’s rule. The lack of a free press that should be able to openly criticize the government when it is needed, the lack of freedom of speech that should give the right of every Cuban to express their opinion, not only pro but against the regime in private, public or via marches and rallies. The lack of political parties that should question and challenge steps taken by the Communist party; the lack of free elections, the restriction of ordinary Cubans from hotels, clubs and beaches visited by tourists, and that makes Cubans feel like secondary citizens in their own country, etc.

It’s great that you lived and talked with Cubans about the best way to fix their country, but to get the real pulse of the ordinary Cuban political views, you may need to live as a Cuban for more than a year or two to grasp the deep fear of the reprisals and consequences for expressing to a stranger any issues that could criticize or contradict the Cuban government in any shape or form, reprisals that could cost you the job that is feeding your family or jail time, and maybe then you may find someone brave enough that will take a risk and open up to you.

In Cuba you learn not to discuss any political issues unfavorable to the regime, even with your next door neighbor, because anyone could be working for the government or the CDR. (a block by block organization that consists of neighbors watching and ratting on other neighbors based on their political views) In Cuba there is a simple well-known rule that oppresses democracy and freedom of speech and the government is not shy to advertise it: If you are not in favor of the regime you are an antisocial and an enemy of your countryman.

Those are the things that people like me can’t just turn a blind eye to, because we think they are unjustified and Cuba deserves better than that

I think our national poet put it best:

“Tyranny is the same in all its shapes, even though sometimes it dresses in handsome names and grand deeds.” José Martí

yerMa , you mentioned one point I forgot to touch on. Castro has done a great job selling to Cubans and to the world, the idea that anyone that speaks against him belongs to two groups of Cubans: the ones that go to jail for speaking against him inside the island are all spies or are getting paid from the U.S to do so; and anyone speaking against him from outside the island, are all radical bitter Cuban Americans that resent the fact that he took power or material possessions, from them or their previous generation that left Cuba before 1959.

There is another group that is discontented with his regime and Castro conveniently never mentions in his long speeches, and those are a new generation of Cubans that were born inside Castro’s revolution, and are living in or out of the island. I belong to that group and I left Cuba only 7 years ago. I don’t particularly want to live on the United States or have any interest of living there either. If you look at statistics there are millions of Cubans overseas not only in the U.S but all over the world, that thanks to Cuban tourism were able to find someone to sponsor them so they could leave the island, since Cubans inside the island don’t have the right to buy a plane ticket to their choice of destination for a family vacation or emigration purpose, even if they possess the money to do so.

So there are a big percentage of Cubans that live inside the island or overseas and their opposition to the regime is solely influenced by Castro’s control and restrictions of their freedom and human rights and haven’t been influenced at all by the generation that left or stayed in Cuba before 1959, and don’t care for their stories either.

Correction: In my above commentary I stated twice about the people that left Cuba before 1959, when I really meant to say right on 1959 and early 60's

ı lavyo lave ernesto che guvera

che guevara is a perfect example of heroism,hes last words made him conquer fear, i dont care what this IGNORANT FOOLS are sayin,too million this guy has been an icon, and if your sayin "fuck che" that makes you a BUSH ASS LICKING BITCH.

Im from Cuba I live there now and everyone here loves che most of you people dont even no what your talking about che was the exact definition of a hero. Sure many people fled but they were the bad ones cubas not even a bad place to live either a lot of canaidans go here its just that stupid americans keep getting the wrong idea of stuff

you suck

THE REVOLUTION ONLY WORKED CAUSE THEY GOT POPULAR SUPPORT BY THE PEOPLE. if it wasnt for the cuban citizens putting up road blocks and throwing molotovs from roof tops to batista troops the revolution might have failed..so look at yourselves cubans

hı ya

This is for Eduardo, from Cuba: You are the only one that dont know anything about Cuban History, maybe because you are young or a blind communist. In Cuba everybody loves Che because most of the people dont know what happened in the first years of the Revolution, you dont know che's discrepancies with Fidel and how he pushed Che to dead in Bolivia.
Tha fact that you are writing in this page indicates that you are very close to the government. Regular people in Cuba does not have access to Internet.

FUCK YOU, Che Guevara es un Cabron, tu sabes? Che is a fucking coward. Next time you get your lame liberal socialist ass out off the computer, walk down to la biblioteca and pick up a copy of "Fidel", you'll learn something you dumb son of a bitch. Lo Chopa Pendejo. Chinga te

Para Eduardo: My beis Abuelitos lived in Cuba From when they were born in about 1914 to year 1981, and my abuela lived until the year before the revolution. It was no revolution. She kept in touch with her parents, via, telephone, letters, and yearly visits. My beis abuelos are the kindest and most hospitable people in the world, and they were poverty stricken for no reason, because of the bastard Fidel Castro. Hundreds of innocent men were killed on the firing lines. And Che was the leader of the firing lines. Resist Oppression? He made that famous quote, am I wrong? Well, he has created oppression on the island. It's not a good place to live you dumb fucker, if it were good place to live, would people risk their lives trying to escape to live in the wonderful land of the free on a raft?
how bout on a floating car. How bout swimming. My family swam. I tell no lies my friend, Che ruined the most beautiful place on earth. Communism Creates more power for the government, it takes away an individuals ability to control his own fate to a certain extent. It usually involves a dictatorship, dictatorships are evil, there is nothing good about them. Furthermore, Castro violates mulitple rights on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whether Cuba is a member of the U.N. or not, it is still wrong to violate these rights.

Now go buy the book "Fidel"

I believe it is by Humberto E. Gonzales, a Cuban immigrant, who immigrated after the revolution due to poor living conditions and oppression. thank you

LOL dude this shit is so long and it will never stop you know why there are always people that are giong to hate che and some that dont live with it you can never do nothnig about it.... thats the true you can fight and fight but thats the true im cuban too and some stupid fuck said cubans love che fuck him they dont...one of my great great grandfathers was one of those generals that fought agaisnt cuba in the revelution and his journal says alot of stuff that will teach you stupid fuck who love fidel and che he killed he died same like fidel he will have his time....soon but read and read on because like i said people are always giong to love che and alot dont know who he is its just another trend or rebel thnig....but who cares in the end!!! i say FUC CHE AND WHO EVER LIKES HIM my family lost lives because of him so what else you got you stupid ass ball licking cummies!!!!!!!!!!!

Che Guevara is no hero to me. He helped bring communism to Cuba. If there are communists in here, I'm sorry but the system doesn't work, regardless of what you think you've "learned" in school. If it was so great Cuban women wouldn't have to resort to prostitution with "Che" T shirt wearing tourists to feed their familes. Che was an assasin regardless of what his "righteous" beliefs were. They should make a tshirt of Che gunned down!

I have been interested in the history of Cuba for a short period of time and I am quite torn as to what I think to be honest.

However, I talked to some cubans outside of the tourist traps, have seen the people begging for money in Santiago, have seen the smiles on the Cuban people and the misery as well.

I won't keep this long but this is what I feel about Che and Cuba:

Che is adored by many Cubans, especially in Santiago. People in the streets talk to you about Che openly and their admiration for the man. No, I didn't find any anti-che Cubans, but no doubt believe there are lots of them.

Secondly, a lot of Cubans hate Americans and Bush. There have been attacks on Cuba by Cuban Americans and the United States doesn't do anything but arrest 5 Cubans for 'spying' on America to protect their own interests.

The Cuban Americans have a strong distaste because they lost property and money they left behind before the bay of pigs attempt and will be forever bitter.

What is the point of the trade embargo for the US? To me, simply to try to punish Fidel, but in reality it only punishes the people of Cuba. (interesting fact: JFK bought hundreds of boxes of cigars before they put the embargo in place)

One last thing, Americans as a whole, believe the world should be run how they believe it is run. There are classic examples worldwide of this. I wish America would focus on their own issues of poverty and hate before telling the rest of the world how they should run their countries.

one thing to remember is that che guevara in his own words claimed a desire to nuke the united states. how can u pinko-commie liberals justify that one

equating a liberal with a pinko-commie is a bit like saying conservative nazi-fascist. so take it easy bud.

Che Guevara was a MARXIST for those of you who don't know. In a marxist state the individual does not matter. It is the collective that works for the benifit of the state. as you're bombarded by state sanctioned propaganda.

How would any of you young minded, uninformed, idealistic dumbasses like it if the bush administration decided to take all privately owned land, houses and businesses and make them the sole property of the federal government. I realize that some of you don't own a goddamn thing but i'm sure your parents do, and I guarantee they wouldn't like it. I'll tell you what else, the economy would collapse because people no longer had any real competative desire to go out and kick ass. and everything would pretty much suck ass badly as you taste in t-shirts. Not only that but if you didn't like it you either go to jail, face excecution or keep your mouth shut.

che was a son of a bitch

have a nice day.

Mahatma Ghandi never killed a single man to free his 2 billion countrymen!!! Che was a murderer! Ghandi is a real real man! And to all you ignoramuses: the USA is NOT capitalism.

To Mr. Fixir,

Sir, you clearly have nothing better to do than post hate comments at: 4:47am, get a life.

ps. The U.S. is the standard for capitalism, you may wanna look that word up.

To Orlando,

I'm surprised you know what a "Marxist" is, but what I know you are not aware of is that there have been many Marxist-like states before "Communism". One of them were the Incas in which everybody worked for a common goal within the community without greed or deception. The reason why Marxism doesn't not work today is the same reason why there aren't anymore Incas, and that is the Eurocentric way of thinking that the Anglos have taken all over the world. So dont blame these so called "young minded people" who are yet to be crushed by the weight of capitalism and have to worry about which car they have to drive or which big house they have to buy in order to be fit in society. Let them feel and fight for that passion of what is right and just. Because in the end, war is young people dying and old people talking.

How to make fun about the one whom where CHE t-shirts , our videos : labaf.blogspot.com

""It is better to die standing than to live on your knees" was said by zapata, foo.

Guess who's back!

I was pretty sure that I said all that I had to say on this subject, and that we had come to a reasonable conclusion, but just last week someone printed an editorial in my school newspaper lashing out against Che t-shirts which rekindled my annoyance with those who have a problem with the clothing I wear. However, since my last post I have come to realize that this debate is not a political debate. It is not a debate about whether Cuba or the United States is better, nor who of Bush or Che or Fidel is more evil. It is a debate about symbology and iconic representation, which in reality can never be resolved because there will always be (at least) two groups that will never see eye to eye. Let me explain:

The Che t-shirt is like the American flag. And just so the capitalists don't get offended, it is also like the Chinese flag and the Mexican flag and the British flag etc., etc., etc. It represents an ideology far beyond what everyone can only see. It represents the the idea of standing up against corrupt governments, it represents a hope for the lowest classes of the world that they might be able to one day improve their condition, and it represents (in my eyes at least) the beauty of economic equality and justice. It is a symbol of all of these things. It is a symbol that stands for more than the actions of a single man, it stands for more than one man could ever be. Did Che kill people? Yes. Was he a perfect person? Definitely not. But the shirt is more than just Che.

To address the question of why Che is used, the answer is simple. He is a very romantic figure. He fought in guerrilla battles, he had long hair and a beard, and most important of all, he died young. He is a romanticized symbol of and idea, an idea that he may not have wholly represented, but an idea nontheless.

The people who share socialistic ideals are going to love what I have written because because they agree with these principles. Those who are capitalists will still hate Che, and will still not agree with my analysis, because it goes against their political beliefs. But that is OK. As I said, he is a symbol. The shirts with his face on it represent an idea, so those who agree with that idea will love the symbol, those who disagree will hate the symbol. It is the same thing as feeling good about seeing an American flag, but cringing when a Mexican flag is waived in the US. People think the Mexican flag has no place in the US, and neither does the Che shirt because they contradict the ideals of the United States.

As I said, these two (or more) groups will never see eye to eye. They are fundamentally different. Arguing about which system of government is better is irrelavent to the topic at hand (which I now realize) and arguing about whether Che is the right man to be the symbol for socialism is also moot; he has already been chosen.

But what I think we CAN all agree on is this:

How annoying are those people who wear his shirt but don't know who he is? I mean come on.

Matt
I completely agree with you. I have so many Che shirts. I wear them because I believe in what he lived and died for, but people do not seem to understand that. I live in New York and most of these people only see Che's face and since they have been brainwashed by the U.S media, they think communism and Fidel without even knowing what communism means or stands for. I'm sure Che turns in his grave everytime a pop artist (by pop I mean popular so yes Jay-Z makes pop music sometimes) wears a shirt with his face on it. Jay is a perfect example, I respect the guy as a rapper, he is very talented but obviously does not know what Che stands for. He we wore in his unplugged cover, a gold chain that I am sure costs more than $20,000 when that money could have gone somewhere in Africa where a whole village could have eaten with that money for months maybe even a year. In another of his rhymes he says "I'm like Che Guevara with bling on." Che would have never wore a $100,000 chain. Pitbull is another artist who calls Che an assassin but at the same time wears scarface shirts. To me that is ignorance. He talks bad about a man that believed in equality for everyone, but wears a shirt of a man that sold cocaine, was a drug addict and killed to become a big drug lord in Miami??? Yes it was a movie but that is the character that he has on his t-shirts. I would never wear an scarface t-shirt, that is one of the reasons why latinos can not move up sometimes. We have the wrong rolemodels, kids grow up watching Scarface and want to be like that. That is also the reason why we have a bad image. Young kids do not want to be doctors or lawyers since all they see are drugs and money. This turned out to be a little longer that what I expected. I just wanted to let this out. I do not mean disrespect to anyone but as a Latin American History graduate student I have read both sides of Che's lives and balanced out the bad and the good and the bad is mostly the same thing said over and over that he is a killer and the good is just endless. Please before you judge this man read the motorcycle diaries, do not watch the movie. Read the actual book and you will understand why he did what he did or how he felt. And to whoever believes in his ideas, do not say there is nothing you can do. MAYBE YOU DO NOT HAVE THE COURAGE TO OVERTHROW A GOVERNMENT BUT EQUALITY CAN BE PRACTICED EVERYWHERE. LOOK AT YOUR WAITER, THE MAN MOWING YOUR LAWN, YOUR CAB DRIVER, ETC. THEY ARE ALL LIKE YOU, THEY ARE YOU, TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT AS IF THEY WERE YOUR BROTHERS. IF YOU SEE THEY DO NOT HAVE THOSE NICE CLOTHES YOU HAVE TRY TO HELP THEM OUT IN A WAY, HOW? TRUST ME IT WILL COME TO YOUR HEAD. I live my own revolution, in my heart and in my community.

VIVA CHE!

It is interesting that those who support Che's ideas have NEVER lived in Cuba as a Cuban, and have never actually seen what communism did to Cuba or Russia.

It is also interesting that those who support Che are more aggressive in their comments.

If you have a Che t-shirt, you know you can wear it whenever you want, because you are in a FREE country. Ask people in communists regimes if they can wear a Bush t-shirt. I would never do that, because let's face it, he could not be more stupid; but I should be able to if I wanted right?

Just read both sides of the story before you make up your mind, and be OPEN to new ideas, even if it means that you will have to dump your 30-dollar shirt.

Nothing is black or white.

The question is: if it is grey, is it light or dark?

I read his diaries. I think everyone that posted something in this website should. Che killed. Was it justified for a bigger cause? I personally think he liked it. He was not a pacifist. Che's shirt always gives me the idea that the person behind is a beligerant Bush, just on the other side of the argument.

Yeah, Che was someone to admire alright... if you consider killing a 14 year old simply because he failed to salute him... admirable! All you people speak of what the Che did, and what he stood for, yet not one of you ever spent a day with him. Well, I'm an elderly Cuban, who spent time in the prison which housed the famous "paredon" or "firing squad wall", and witnessed in person, many of the countless atrocities committed by Che. I am all for freedom, and for fighting oppression, and having lived in both a Communist country as well as the United States, I can see the benefits and pitfalls to both... I just wonder if any of you would agree to anyone walking around with a picture of Hitler on your chests... Its easy to discuss "revolution" from the comforts of your laptops and computers, yet not one of you has ever been taken to the firing squad, have Che stand before you, order the firing squad to fire, have the guns go off, you think you are about to die, and then hear your idol, the Che, laugh... for this time it was only blanks. I was one of the lucky ones that was shot at with blanks. Thousands of others were not so "lucky". If your idea of an idol, if your idea of someone to immitate is a person that killed people for the sake of killing them, for his ego, for his pleasure, then Yes! Viva el Che!

It is very ignorant to say Che was a killer, in that case call George Washington or even Simon Bolivar, Jose de San Martin< tupac Amaru II a killer, since they were revolutionaries and killed as well. If you do not know who they are then I suggest you read a little more Latin AMerican hstory not just Cuban so you can sound a little less ignorant. People say the same thing over and over. he was a killer, he was a killer. Nothing proves he liked killing but had to do it because it is part of the revolution. Another thing is that he was not afraid of death. I personally wear a Che t-shirt because of his believes of equality. If you are gonna go and talk about his flaws then in that case talk about Martin Luther King's flaws, or Gandhi's flaws. I know what you are thinking:"yeah but they did not kill." Again same thing over and over. Tell me something else about CHe to convince me or other people. He was a revolutionary. That is why he killed. It is part of a revolutionary's life. Please disagree with me about his belives that everyone should be equal. DO you belive in god? I bet you do and I'm sure you believe in heaven too and you believe that in heaven we will all be the same. Why can't it be this way here? All the same no matter the race or money. This is something you can not take away from someone like me. He killed fourteen year old boy? I do not doubt he did and he killed his dog as well because he was making too much noise in Sierra Maestra. Again, this is part of a revolution. By calling him a killer you are saying nothing. This country is not killing 14 year old boys but they are sure exploiting them making nike sneakers and polo shirts for peanuts. Let's be foreal Cuba has a 97% literacy rate, 1.2% unemployment rate. You are a Cuban who lived there and lived it and decided to come to the US for a "Better life." That is selfish. The people who want to leave Cuba are because they want more and more. Just enough for everyone was not right because you want a Benz and pig out on burgers. You are mad because Cuba lets everyone eat instead of letting the rich get all the food. If you are an older Cuban, you should know aobut Batista and how he was basically selling the country to the U.S. It is amazing how fast you learned english. You speak it almost perfectly. I would think to remember all this clearly you had to be at least 15 or 16 years old, had to get here maybe on your 20's. It is great how you learned english this fast. How is it that only Cubans say he liked to kill when he went all over the world and people love him? Because he fought with Fidel, that is why. You might ask why don'y I go live in Cuba? I was there 2 years ago and I actually am thinking about moving over there. The education is one of the best in Latin America and my children will hopefully never see this capitalistic bull****. I can proudly say AGAIN: HE IS MY IDOL, for his ideas and he was a revolutionary. I'm thinking as a Cuban, you like Bush better than Che and Bush has killed more 14 year olds invading Iraq for oil. I hope your capitalism makes you happy while people drive million dollar cars and people can't afford food in Africa or Cambodia. Can you blame me for his ideals? WE ARE ALL EQUAL!!
VIVA EL COMUNISMO!!!!!
VIVA CHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am quite disappointed with the points of exchange I have just read. I am a pragmatic American (Estado Unidense for the Latin Americans) and I after much research and study I have come to the realization that the American public is poorly misinformed and undereducated about a mass number of international historical milestones. Marxism has been responsible for Millions of deaths around the world. Any philosophy or governmental system that aims for peace and stability by the removal of freedoms has no place in human society. Every system has its flaws, but Marxist Communism is imcompatible with the human condtion. We are not robots programmable by our leaders (unless we allow ourselves to be). Acclaimed Cuban writer remarked on his move to the United States saying the following: "The difference between the communist and capitalist systems is that, although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream. And I came here to scream."

Che Guevara was responsible, personally may I add, for the deaths of thousands of men, women and children of all ages. This is not peace and this is not equality. I urge the writers and readers of this blog to thoughtfully consider more than just emotional urges when thinking about alining yourselves to images and personages of the likes of Che Guevara. To many people you pass on the streets when wearing your Che T-shirts, you are supporting the murder of their friends and family. It is a close comparison to passing Jewish people on the streets wearing a T-shirt proclaiming the heroism of Adolph Hitler. Be careful my friends. Life is full of lies and deceptions and the only truth that can be found is in the love you can give to other people. If you want to look up to a revolutionary figure, look to one who serves in humility, not in anger or pride. Look to one who washes the feet of the lowly and kisses the sores of the afflicted. Look to an individual bent on serving others and lifting the hearts of the most oppressed. Revolutions truly do not stem from violence. Changes come from the heart. Violence begets violence. Peace is only achieved when the fighting ends. Che Guevara did not want peace, because Che Guevara made war.

"People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway. If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; Be happy anyway. The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway. Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and HIM; It was never between you and them anyway."
-Mother Theresa-

1) Do you remember niño Elian? His mother died trying to flee Che Guevara's new-man workers' paradise. He is now properly indoctrinated and waving the Revolution's flag in an orderly fashion, together with all other party machine members - or else no shoes this year.
2) There is a trade embargo on Cuba implemented by 1 country. Where is the factual, not just verbal, support from all other leftist, socialist, social-democrat, brotherly countries and bigmouth Guevara henchmen, as I read above? Or are they doing business (hotels, bars, whorehouses, aircraft, heavy industry) and just not talking about it? There is no U.S. Navy blockade hindering trade with Fidel/Guevara/Raul Cuba. Maybe it is just easier to rant LOUDLY while actually dealing with the Cuban Armed Forces in order to settle a DOLLAR/EURO deal?
3) Cuba under Batista was the USA's whorehouse (isn't that right?). At present, Canadian and other tourists (in the main Spanish) tourists travel to Cuba to get laid by sex slaves, more attractive than they would ever get to screw in their horror capitalist countries of origin, and pay the pimp (Cuban Army officrs through the "Tourism" authority run by Raul Castro) who partners hotel/brothel arrangements under CAPITALIST financing arrangements.
4) Is he DEAD? like, people wear Che Guevara T-shirts - one of my daughters, for example - as they run from boutique to top-of-the-line EXPENSIVE Universities and travel from the UK to Spain to Italy and soon, possibly, the USA (what?!! they have a PASSPORT?!!!) If Guevara ruled they would be chopping cane in rags and undergo re-education to appreciate their annual single 30-watt family lightbulb allotment with NO PASSPORT to leave Paradise and find a different life elsewhere.
5) A better proponent of Guevara's political philosophy is Pol Pot, our Cambodian friend. He tried to put into practice the concept of the NEW MAN, previously outlined by earlier (and even more removed from reality) "thinkers" including brilliant theorist Guevara. Basically, if you wear glasses or your hands are not calloused, you are not a "worker" and therefore put against the wall and shot (do you prefer fusilado? ejecutado? liquidado? ajusticiado? baleado? purgado por anti-revolucionario?) Obviously it's a Party member who decides if your hands are hardened enough to survive or be classified as capitalist exploiter of the people. I wonder, how many of us would pass? I wouldn't, I don't work in a quarry. How about you? I mean, you wear his T-shirt, you must be a Party member but toil in a CAPITALIST hell to make CAPITALISTS rich, correct?. How we suffer. or at least feel sympathy for our hermanos explotados. Anyway, as Guevara said and proved, peasants and workers don't count, the Revolution must be led by those who know what's best, right? We can't expect ignorant workers to think for themselves, they might just want a job, a house, a family and other stuff to OWN!!! They are obviously HOARDERS and, as our comrade Joe Stalin said (ask Guevara) hoarders shall be squashed like cockroaches. By the way, do YOU hoard? like you own a PC or laptop, fridge or, even, a TV? Do you get MTV? In Western Europe, Canada, other workers's hellholes of exploitation, even Oprah? WHY? Are you an oppressor of the people? What channels do you see? Are they 100% run by the government? If you live in the USA, that would be the Bush/Republican/totalitarian/fascist/vampire/raw tartar-steak-eating party. Think of freedom-loving Ayatollahiran. Do you know what legal punishment is in force in Cuba against those who access or use Internet? Since you are on line, it might be an interesting exercise to learn how many years in non-accommodating, Guevara-friendly communist jail. I hope you're not gay, please find out where you'd be and what they would do to you, the defenders of people's rights.
6) Why is Christmas against the law in Cuba? I mean, you can worship turds like Fidel and Guevara, party members eat turkey, Cuban diplomatas celebrate in New York city. Can you pray to Mao these days, wave his Little Red Book? Is he OK or did they outlaw his worship too, this year? He only got rid of +- 70 million Chinese, to the admiration of Guevara. WHat about brothers Ceausescu, Honecker, Hoxha and all the other faceless cannibals? At least Kim is holding out in North Korea, he can still construct Ernesto Guevara's NEW MAN theory, in spite of XXX million dead of starvation. What the hell, the T-shirt looks good in the Versace stores - Madonna's sense of fa$hion can't be wrong. Keep on financing the REVOLUT$ON,brother$ and $i$ter$! Guevara may be dead, but Raul will re$pect hi$ legacy. By the way, don't you think Mel would have hired him to play Je$u$ in the movie? At least the legionaries would have done to him what millions of people would like to see.
7) Next time you think of Guevara, consider whether your contribution to the REVOLUCION (?) would match his idea, or what might pass for ideas in that manic-depressive, inferiority-ridden Argentinian not-quite-good-enough-family member brain?. The bourgeoisie is just terrible when it gets this wannabe, don't get invited to the right clubs feeling. Asthma patients who pretend to smoke solid cuban cigars in the HUMID jungle without choking up just to score a photo-op really don't deserve a lot of credit, unless they enjoy the support of people, some of them well-meaning, who have never been on their knees in his cell as the murderer tries once again to ram his insanity into them by shooting them dead.
8) And now Fidel is leaving us to join that big Party up there! I suppose the joke is that he'll have to share eternity with that one guy who upstaged him. They will be one more bunch of atoms floating amid cosmic gas clouds, neither better nor worse. I bet that will really burn, actually sharing equal status with all other workers and proles! LIBERTAD O MUERTE, well, now they are getting muerte, maybe everybody else in Cuba may soon have LIBERTAD.

Dear Jorge:

I am glad you took the time to respond to some of the posts, including mine ... or should I say, mostly to mine. First of all, I would like to say that I respect your point of view. Second of all, I would like to suggest that you don't make so many assumptions, as you do ... you do know what they say about assuming, no? Now, to respond to your post.

First of all it is not ignorant to say that Ernesto "Che" Guevara was a killer. This is a fact. He killed many times. This is not open to opinion, this is, once again, a simple fact. The negative connotation that you choose to attach to the word "killer" is your own doing. Why do you feel so threatened to hear that Che was a killer? I find this interesting, but we should perhaps leave this for another discussion.

Secondly, you are right that Washington and other leaders were also killers. Revolutions have as an inevitable and inseparable constituent: death. This is drastically different however, from gratuitous death, or egotistical death. This is simply what I am trying to say about Che. Che not only killed out of necessity, he did it out of ego and pride, both of which are unnecessary and inexcusable. Have we ever heard of Washington killing because someone did not salute him? I haven't, but if you have, please share your anecdote with me, as I would be very interested to hear it.

You speak of equality, and yet you admire a person that elected himself the Minister of Economy for Cuba, when he did not know the first thing about finances or how to run economies! I personally heard him tell the anecdote: Castro mentioned that they needed an "Economista" and economist, and Che raised his hand and said "I can do it". Later on when it became transparent that he was not qualified to be such Minister and the economy of Cuba was in real trouble, he said "Oh, you said an "economista", I thought you said a "comunista"! (a communist) and started laughing. Does this sound to you like a person that actually had the best interest in mind for the people of Cuba, or simply his best interest in mind? Does this sound like a person that wanted to establish true equality for all?

You are right about Batista. He was a puppet of the US, and was very corrupt, and was leading Cuba into a very bad place. That is why 90% of Cubans, myself included, supported the revolution. This does not, however, give the revolutionaries the right to violate human rights. Then the accuser becomes guilty of that which he is accusing. This is, at the very least, hypocritical, and in Che's case, criminal.

Regarding this country exploiting young foreigners to do work in less than perfect conditions, I don't agree with that either. If you carefully read my previous post, you will see that I admit this system is far from perfect as well. However, I would simply like to say that two wrongs do not make a right! Just because certain individuals in one political system make mistakes, does not justify the wrongs committed by other leaders in other countries. Please do not put words in my mouth, and once again, don't be so quick to assume.

You say you visited Cuba. I am sure you had a great time. My island is a beautiful place, and my fellow countrymen are very fun loving and friendly. However, I would love to sit down with you and ask you just how much you got to see, or was it only what they allowed you to see? Trust me on this one, there is a huge difference! did you by any chance try to invite Cuban people into the restaurants that you were able to eat in? People speak of the great literacy rate in Cuba, and the great medical care in Cuba, and all I can do is smile. Yes, it is true, Cuba has a very low rate of illiteracy. I was personally involved in educating the poor of the country, out in the smaller towns, those forgotten by the previous regimes, such as the corrupt one of Batista. We all were. However, though the numbers of educated people has dramatically increased, the overall quality of education, particularly higher education, has substantially decreased. We sacrificed quality for quantity. The same has happened in the medical system. All Cubans have access to medical care, however, they don't have access to the same quality of care that foreigners have. Anesthesia is a dream for Cubans, but plenty abounds for the foreigners. The vaccine for meningitis developed in Cuba is the only one that has actually been proven to work! yet... few Cubans have access to it. You can however, get in in Argentina, or Venezuela! The same goes for the gamma interferon which is made in Cuba! Its top notch!... but God forbid you are a Cuban in Cuba that needs it... for there is none for you.

I do wish you luck in Cuba if you decide to move. :)

You assume that I support the current administration of this country and the involvement in Iraq. You could not be further from the truth. But the beauty of this system, is that I am free to disagree, and yet can go about my life, my work, etc., without fearing for my life or those of my family. You assume that I left Cuba looking for a better life, for the McDonalds and the comforts of this capitalism. All I can do is smile again, and ask you not to be so quick to assume. I left my country because I could not be free. I was not free to disagree. I was not free to express my religious beliefs. I was not free to be a person. I was persecuted and incarcerated, and my family was prohibited from being able to partake in things such as higher education and proper medical care. All simply because I did not agree with all things being done in Cuba.

You want equality? Then how come everyone in Cuba is dirt poor, while those in the government, particularly Castro, have millions stashed away? You want equality? Where is the equality in Communism? I want equality on Earth as well, but not at the expense of freedom, not at the expense of humanity, not at the expense of our rights, not at the expense of unnecessarily shed blood.

Go live in Cuba, please! Then, and only then, will your eyes see just how green the grass is on the other side.

Thank you Hector for your voice in this horrendous discussion.
I can only be greatful that none of polish revolutionists become a world icon growing on people`s ignorance and fascination of marxism and leninism that they have never experienced.
Although the common amnesia has struck Poland as well.
www.newsmax.com

Best regards from Communist Free Poland

Ernesto Che Guevara is worthy of all the praise he was given. He was a brilliant man, he was noble and yes he did do some brutal things but im sorry times were tough back then, he was trying to improve a country that was a piece of shit thanks to the yanqui's and batista's government. He was trying to improve the world for the better, he was NOT a dictator, if you belive so it shows your ignorance of not enough about him. He is worthy of being idolised and his brilliance cannot be expressed in words. He helped a people whom he didnt even belong too, now thats something! Im finding that more and more people are finding excuses to prove that his work was of far less importance or that he is not worthy of the great statu that he is given but you must remember that he was a trained doctor, so he could has just sat back and do nothing but this is not so he decided to make himself useful to this crappy world and he tried to improve it. If any of the people who degrade him have made a difference of any sort to this world then perhaps your argument to why you think he was terrible might be bearable to listen too otherwise i suggest you do your research and i mean thorough research that takes many accounts into detail. I'm sorry but how dare you try to demean his work, how can you hate a man who didn't know or can't understand, I admire him for his views, he hated unjustice and poverty and imperialism like all of us do and he did something about it yes his views were different to yours and his methods were not to your liking but so what? I can sympathise with your views of him killing but he didnt do it for pleasure, think about it he was trained as a doctor- to help people, the killing im sure was something he viewed as something that had to be done. However you cannot say that he was a terrrible man because of that, what he fought for was pure and he was a good man. Viva Che!
Hasta la victoria siempre!

I've been studying Che Guevara alot recently. Not just the American perspective. That would not be fair. Every country paints their own pictures, and the American picture of Che is a)the martyr of social justice; the romanticized hero that put his people before himself, and b) the murderous revolutionary gangster who slaughtered thousands and help "the enemies of justice" Fidel Castro and Stalin. These pictures are the pictures associated with his actual pictures that are branded and marketed. Then we have the Cuban picture of che, which is the man who killed 2,500 people, including the children brutally murdered at the firing squad. Lastly, we have the Latin American picture where Che is portrayed as a hero who fought tirelessly for equality and justice. Ironically, Che rose again, like Christ, but not in the physical form, which would have made his message stronger as Christs was, but he rose as an icon. A sex symbol, a gangster, a hero, you name it. The irony lies deeper in that his icon status lies in the heart of his enemy, and the enemy to his cause-America, the capitalist superpower full of greedy people concerned solely for theor own welfare (as Che saw it, not necessarily how I feel).
No matter how Che is viewed, the facts will always remain. Che Guevara had a very noble cause, but his romanticised idealism would never come true because the world thrives on greed. That is why communist countries aren't as successful as Democaratic, because people will most likely perform more if their is something more to get out of their performance, as communist workers feel no need to advance or excel because they get paid the same amount, and get no promotions, raises, etc. Che also was, in fact, a ruthless murderer. But if you review your list of heroes, you will likely find someone who has commited savage acts. And to all future people to post, DO YOUR RESEARCH; DIG FOR INFO before you just shout off the mundane message that you're cluelessly preaching as if your opinion was not integrated into your mind. Always do research on your own and look at every side to the story, not just the propagandous bullcrap that your local newspaper will feed you.

wow...three years worth of comments. thanks to all of you for a good read. i like the way eric (way back there somewhere) identifies violence itself as the problem. i get so fucking sick and tired of hearing how we need to use violence to solve the problem of "their" violence, while "their" violence is them solving the problem of our violence, etc. yes, i accept that a violent act can be the lesser of two evils (e.g. fighting to free captives)...but for god's sake, we've had thousands of years to sort our shit out...you'd think by now we'd be able to manage things so it wasn't necessary at all. the problem is that the people who benefit from violence (or think they do) manage to convince their victims that they do too (to protect them from worse violence, or whatever)...so instead of resisting it, everyone cheers it on. "spank that kid or he'll hit someone else. execute that murderer or he'll kill someone else. bomb those terrorists or they'll bomb someone else". in every case there are better ways but people are frightened into thinking that supporting violence will protect them from it. stupid, stupid, stupid. as for che, i don't know enough to pass judgement. sounds like he tried his best to do right as he understood it. i'd rather see a gandhi t-shirt or whatever, but shit, better che than nike or something. at least it might get one or two people to think about stuff.

Everyone's mind is already made. I made my research you made yours, some people even lived in Cuba and gave their opinions. Nothing is going to change. People praise the United States as the best country, with freedom of speech and all these "opportunities." The US started everything. If they would have never had Cuba the way it was with Batista, Not Fidel nor Che would have been there. I hope you guys are happy with freedom of speech while wearing your clothes made of cheap labor and buying food in your chain restaurants in California, Utah, Arizona and Colorado while they are paying their workers (who are usually Mexican) minimum wage when hundreds of years ago, this land was taken from them. Enjoy your freedom, while other people who are exploited by the US (not in Cuba of course) are not enjoying theirs because they can not afford shoes. Enjoy it because it might be great to you but everything has a price and in this case is many people starving because of America's capitalism.

I have a Che t-shirt, and I will not be ashamed to wear it. I have enormous respect for that man. He saw what he wanted to change and did his damnedest to change it. The guy wasn't a monster as some would like to think. He didn't shoot people left and right because he felt like it. Yes Guevara killed people, but what politician hasn't? I do believe the power went to his head a little, and I'm not saying a difference in opinion is reason to kill, but I believe he did so because he felt so passionately about his cause. He had good intentions and I will continue to wear my Che shirt and respect him. (and I agree with Jorge)

Ernesto Che Guevara. What a guy! All of you communists are so disillusioned. Many people say to me that communism is a great idea, but because of human nature it will never work. Well, I have to say that it is a terrible idea because human nature will not allow it to work. Freedom is the solution to the problems of the world. Government interference is the root of many evils. That is why I am a libertarian.

ERNESTO CHE GUEVARA WAS A MAN THAT FIGHT FOR THE POOR PEOPLE IN CUBA, HE WANTED THE SAME RIGHTS FOR EVERY CUBAN CITIZEN , NOW LET ME TELL YOU GAYS , THE PEOPLE WHO DIED WAS VERY RICH PEOPLE THAT DID GOVERN LOTS OF MONETARY POWER IN CUBA. AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SHARE THIR MONEY WITH CUBANS WITH LESS OPORTUNITIES. NOW THEY WENT TO U.S BECAUSE THEY NEVER LEARNED HOW TO LIVE WITHOUT MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN AMBISIOUS ACTITUD. THEY LOVE MONEY MORE THAN THEIR LIFES, AND THAT WHY CHE GUEVARA TOOK THE DESICION TO FIGHT TO DEAD AGAINST THIS KIND OF CUBAN THAT AT THE PRESENT TIME THEY ARE NOTINGH ELSE THAN SIMPLE AMERICANS , THEY ALSO FORGOT THEIR LENGUAGE. THAT;S SO SAD BECUASE FIDEL GIVE TO CUBA A PLACE WITHOUT VIOLENCE AND A PLACE WITH THE BEST EDUCATION OF THE WORLD. BUT AMERICAN CUBANS ONLY THING ABOUT LIVES WITH BIG CARS, HOUSES, FOOD, AND MOST OF THEM ARE DROG DEALERS IN THE US STREETS, WEARING CHE GUEVARA FUCK SHIRT. THANKS CHE GUEVARA FOR TEACH ANRENTINIANS AND BOLIVIANS THAT THE EARTH IS THE EARTH OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON. NO THE MISERABLE LIFE THAT AMERICAN CUBANS CHOICE OUT OF THEIR BEUTIFUL COUNTRY, NOW LOOK WHO;S A COWARD! CHE GUEVARA IS A LEGEND IS ONE OF THE BEST MAN THAT EXIST IN THIS WORLD!

this discution has been going on for years...

if che was such a good guy, why all the contraversy?

reading history from one perspective doesnt mean you know the truth

the american government WAS involved in the 9/11 attacks

CHE GUVERA IS A GREAT PERSON

By now I'm sure everyone gets that he was a revolutionary fighting for some sort of freedom and equality, that's what revolutions are; but what I don't think most people understand is how he killed. He didn't just order deaths, he was literally an executioner. He went from being a doctor to a man that traveled around with guerrilla groups and carried out cold-blooded executions while looking into the eyes or his victims. I guess the Hippocratic oath lost it's appeal. To wear the likeness of a man that shot people in the face every day is not tantamount to wearing a Stalin shirt; it's much worse.

FUCK CHEGUEVARA
FUCK THE COMMUNIST SCUM
NSM

Personally i hate all the little hippy asses who sport ches face, Those mind fucks think they know their politics but acting all left wing saying che was a freedom fighter , this that and whatever cliche comes to mind. The fact is this shit did more bad than good and while his intentions may be good enough they sure freaking proed to be flawed.

Also he was quoted saying that had he been in control during the cuban missile crisis, he would have launched them without hesitation , and i may add that one was aimed at a canadian naval city , Halifax NovaScotia where i had been born and raised so i take offense to those idiots who live here sporting his fucking face, Had it not been for Khruschev being in control of Fidel, I may not be here to bitch about those political posers sporting that tards face

I have a che beanie. I did research on what he did before he bought it because it makes no sense to show something you dont believe in. Che connected to me as a hawaiian because when we were overthrown by the U.S. we were helpless. Our late queens and kings wanted to be annexed by the United Kingdom which didnt happen. I think if someone like Che was here a good 40 years ago, life would be different. Im not sure for the good or the bad but I just believe in his intentions, NOT his actions.

BASICALLY. che was a revolutionist how people go about these things is up to them. o k if he executioned people as people put it and he died by bein executioned then what went around came around didn't it? its not for us to judge as i'm sure most if not all of us were not there at that specific time were we? its fair enough to argue now and criticise him for what he did wrong but how would we have acted if we were in that position? No way am i condoning it! but people do what they feel is best at the time. My nationality is british but i have cuban blood and personally i feel if you feel something will make a change for the best you should do it. like it or not dying and killing goes on everyday i mean how many american british and australian soldiers have died in iraq. but i dnt see these kind of sites saying exactly how much of a pig e.t.c george bush is or tony blair or whoever the australian president is (sorry) but you probably will say all that when their dead.. right? because it's easy to talk about someone when they are not there to defend themselves... a lie? none of us will understand the full reasons for why he did what he did. Personally i own a che t-shirt and reading some of the arguements it has slightly altered how i feel about it as for me it just represented Cuba to me. But now i have been educated i'll think twice. if people wana wear the memoribilia let them just as long as they know who he is and why they're wearing it...not just because itz cool!

anyone who promotes change to the death is alright with me go che

Che was one of the greatest revolutionist of all time , and i am thinking of the t-shirt that says fidel is my bitch

But what about the victims of the revolution who were innocent? What about the homosexuals? The mentally ill? All ill treated by the governments since the were too 'weak' to be a part of the communist fabric. Che was a young man who saw REAL poverty and injustice first hand, of course that would make any sympathetic human want to go out and kill the enemies (in this case, and most cases, capitalism), but isnt it fair to say he could have lost sight of his original goals in the midst of revolution? Or do we agree that Che selective chose to fight for the poor and straight, not the poor and gay. In the end, anyone who was thought "counter-revolutionary" in Cuba were persecuted the same way that those who were agaisnt the dictatorship were. In the end, if you are wearing a Che shirt are you not supporting a regime that was rampant in censorship of art and homosexual repression? How much of this did Che acutally have a hand in? A lot of questions, a lot to think about.

baffled

I am another Cuban Ameican and found a
Che shirt while going out for a walk. It was the best shirt I ever owned. It makes a great ass wipe shirt and no wonder all those Che worshippers like it because they are asswipes too. Che is in hell and Fidel Castro will be joining him soon.

I do not believe everything I read- especially propaganda about Che and these so called humble leaders. I could just see how Chavez and Castro live and handle people with different views. I have been to these places and I saw the way people lived.
People in Cuba say the Che couldn't handle peace time and he wasn't up to his job as minister. He went to Bolivia to start something that wasn't needed.
I could start saying that people who wear Che shirts do not have jobs, they hang out and read books about the evil monopolies!!! They don;t work because of evil corporations !!! All these people do is smoke pot and get mad at people who do work. I tell you people like kevin to be careful how you are being manipulated by the leftist. Countries like Venezuela,China, and Cuba are controlled by the ultimate monopoly- one dictator and his small group of yes people.

I live in Canada, and it is far from a socialist utopia. It is closer to the states than most ppl think. Che was a fundamentalist, and he worked outside the system to bring about change, like Gandhi only violent. I think that is all that kids who wear the shirt get, and are trying to communicate thier anti establishment views. America trained thousands of Militants in latin america throughout the cold war to maintain regimes that were loyal to america's private sector's monotary intrests. So it's not cut and dry to say who killed more ppl. Rapheal Trujillo was backed by the states and he was one of the most brutal dictators to ever hold power in Latin America. El Salvador, Grenada, Bolivia, etc have all at one time had an army trained by the americans. A great book on it is called "school of the americas" which documents how brutal dictatorships in latin america functioned effeciently because of US training.

Throughout history, the US has focused on whatever served them most economically. they have disregarded natural rights of people in order to make a profit. they don't care if an evil tyrant is running a country as long as they continue to trade and make a profit from the country. Not once do they even consider the oppressed people living in the country. The US uses people and countries to their advantage, and then turn against them the moment their views clash. For example, before the vietnam war, the US supported Ho-Chi Minh, and before 9/11 we provided money and arms to Osama Bin Laden. They don't care if the people are doing evil, as long as they aren't doing it to us. The US also controls countries and forces them into things they don't neccesarily want. For example, during the various revolutions in the America's, other countries couldn't support the revolutions because the US would blackmail them, and most of the countries couldn't afford to be on bad terms with us. This is similar to the control that russia had over it's satellite nations during the cold war. If the soviets told them to do something they had no choice but to obey them. The government is corrupt, fight the war, fuck the norm.
Peace Love empathy

lets see, kevin, (the one who lives in mom's basement) is stating that the US has done everything just to advance them economically. Back that up , Bitch!
Lay off the bong!!!!! the U.S backed Ho Chi Mihn???/ hey dumbass! the us got into Vietnam to back a bunch of left-wing Frogs...do you know anything about history at all or were you edumacated in one of those nice communist states? Obviously your parents were hippies. There can be no other explanation other that your abuse of drugs. And get off the George Bush derangement syndrome. I t shows itself too much...its ok for Che to murder but Bush never , ever pulled the trigger of a gun against someone's head? are you ok? do you need an appointment with DR. Phil? The biggest corruption ever that happened in this life was the birth of Marx and Engels. Now, grab a boat to Cuba, find your mother's basement to habitate in, (oops I forgot, they can't afford basements there, just a tin shack out back with the pigs only approved by the government), oh yeah, and I just forgot, people are just dying to emigrate to communist countries, and then, bitch,try and write from your computer with the watchful eye of uncle Fidel constantly monitoring you...oh shit!!!!! they can't invent anything in Cuba or other communist countries!!! I wonder why? Could it be due to the lack of competion? your logic and Bush Derangement syndrone is uncanny. I guess it was ok to for Cuba to send mercenaries into Angola and any other country to murder civilians, huh! get a fucking education!! CApitalism gave you everything you have or are you too stupid to see that!! you are ignoring history that has folded before your very eyes!!! An all hte rest of you dumbass left-wing fucks!!!! The wall came down for reason!!!! Think about it, or are you all too stupid....russia didn't invent the computer or a decent anything...Yeah, the birthplace of communism, worthless country that couldn't hold their mud.....communism is a failure, look at China, slowly moving towards what????/ Yeah, you guessed it, there it is again, CAPITALISM!!!!!! ITS NOT EVIL!!! YOU FUCKS ARE JUST TOO DAMN LAZY!

wake the fuck up. All you conservative dumbasses like "freedom" are the reason the world is so fucked up. It is all the ignorant people like you with your "I'm out to make a buck, 'cause in god I trust" who are causing all the problems we have today. Yes Che killed people, but the people he killed were all Bautista supporters threatened the new government and who could have easily overthrown Fidel (with the help of the US). Bush may not have pulled the trigger, but he is responsible for thousands of civilians and US soldiers deaths. And for what? What happened to the WMDs that Saddam was going to destroy the world with? Oh thats right, they don't exist, so what the fuck are we doing in Iraq. And regarding Ho Chi Minh, it is a definite fact that the US supported him during WWII, and then turned when he wasn't helping us anymore. In the end the US doesn't care how many innocent people die as long as we are profiting. Why do you think we aren't doing anything in Darfur, where horrible genocide is taking place? It isn't hurting us economically so we have no need to try and fix the problem. Regarding your complaints about Castro, not once have I said that Castro is a good ruler, in fact he is terrible. This Oct. 9th will be the 40th anniversary of Che's death, I don't understand why people blame Che for all of the problems in Cuba when he has beed dead for forty years. The most important thing about Che is what he stands for. You can argue about his morals as long as you want, but it is his legacy that is the most important. I wear Che because he stands for revolution against oppression and absolute dedication to a cause. By the way "freedom", I'm still in high school, so of course I live in my parents basement.
If we don't take action now, we'll settle for nothing later
Peace, Love, Empathy
Viva Che!