Here's a comment I left about that Defari garbage:

"Defari is a dummy who doesn't know what's really going on. Who had the biggest indie records in the last 4 years in terms of sales? Not Atmosphere or El-P. It was Lil Flip, Blackalicious, and 50 Cent (don't forget "Guess Who's Back"). They all sold over 100,000 units through hustle and talent. Two things Defari is lacking."

About the only thing Defari can be proud of is that he gets hated on more than Jay-Z and 50 Cent combined. I think he should definitely be worried about getting any bigger. It would be hazardous to his health.

i guess defari forgot that he used to be underground, independent - up and comer his own self, not to mention some of the folks he came up with(including evidence and dj babu of dilated peoples) are as far as i know - non-black. i guess it is just not about the music anymore - maybe he just feels threatned.

when it comes to hip-hop all i realy care about is if they have skills. black,white, or any race if they have skill and put thought into their rhymes then i give them a listen. oh yeah 50 cent and lil flip both have medioker skills and dont think, unless its about money.put rap second and hip-hop first. peace

Here's my response to my rappin' critics.

--Oliver

Oops - the link didn't work. Here you go:
www.o-dub.com

--Oliver

Something Defari needs to know is it isnt his money until he earns it - Aesop, Atmosphere, (and don't forget Mr. Lif, Brother Ali, Akrobatik or Cannibal Ox) have skills and instead of spending all their time talking shit, they put out the dope cuts. Maybe Defari should try that and quit running his mouth.

Defari dissin' white mcees?....let not forget dat he did a cut on High-n-Mighty's album Home Field Advantage feat. Evidence called Top Prospects.This fool needs to think before he speaks. He's just upset because no one comes to his shows. He has to tour with GangStar to get recognition. Also Rasco talkin' out his asshole. Who produce most of his first album? Peanut Butter Wolf and Kut Master Kurt.What are they? White. So stop with non-sense racial comments and let's move on w/ this hip hop shit. do yo' own thang.

He never dissed White People at all. You people are like White Race Hustlers or some shit.

I agree... Defari never made a racial comment and I don't think he meant to get racial about it. When I first read Defari's comments, I didn't think he mentioned those artists because they were white, but because he doesn't like their music.

Unfortunately, the reaction he got from people on the web was racialized. Now, I can't control whether people misinterpret or read into someone's comments like that, but I can address the issue of race in hip hop. And I think it NEEDS to be addressed and discussed in the PROPER manner.

Americans are so damn confused about race. And while I agree that race tells very little about a person (by itself), our country is still very much in the grips of race fantasies, stereotypes, and mythologies.

We should very much talk about race... but in the proper manner. We need to sort out the mess. As long as there are racists... we need to talk about this stuff. That's the only way things will change.

I was in Mr. Johnsons 10h grade wrold history class and thhat dude is not only a killer MC, but also a great teacher / scholar.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I remember when that first article on Defari came out in the L.A. Times in like '98.

Listen, Tony... if you are down for a brief interview about your experiences as a student of Defari... let me know. I think it would be cool to show people another, seldom heard, side of Defari.

Are you down for this?

'ATMOSPHERE' Ain't Even WHITE. He's mixed race. His dad was mulattoe(half-white, half Black), he's a quarter Black, US has a history of the'one drop rule' so technically he ain't white and in old fashioned cracker terms he 'black' or 'high Yellow.' Y'all fools all wanta claim someone as repin' a certain race, get out ya Jim Crow-ass mentality and stop ignorant bs.

It's not just white people. A lot of mixed race people think of themselves as Black. It isn't just an issue of skin tone or genetics (or even history), it is also a cultural, and political identification.

The immediate difference between the evolution of hip hop and the evolution of Rock n Roll is the idea of "credibility." I think the idea of being a minority to have credibility is not nearly as relevant as it once was. As hip hop (in all forms) reaches a broader audience is it really a surprise that white cats kick it different than blacks or hispanics? Why is it that Aesop and Slug have wide followings and posers like "Lil White," "White Dog," and the ice man himself fall off? Its an issue of credibility. Aesop and Slug, EL-P, Sole, Cage, Ra, Eminem and others are just being themselves... and each of them rips it in their own right... In the end I think its healthy that we have so many different perspectives. The white cats that don't respect that hip hop is a black art fall off anyway.. in the end I think it gives all races a forum to discuss bigger issues that need to be addressed while at the same time it brings people together with similiar interests and social ideals. How can this be bad.

sweeping generalizations? it was a Quick 20 min interview whose purpose was not to discuss that particular topic but since it came up I spoke on it a bit. It was very general because it was just that. a general statement, not specific because time didn't allow for that. and yes, there are plenty of artists in the magma! man, some of them are still in the core if u wanna take it there. Most of the artists that u mentioned above refer to THEMSELVES as underground.. in conversations I've had with them personally. And in my view they are.. that 5 figures they are getting is nothing compared to the figures that some mainstream artists recieve. Sh*t, I made more money on the Roc The Mic Tour alone than some underground artists would make touring all year. And all I did was Dj for jay for 6 weeks. Granted there are different degrees of "underground-ness" (sorry i t's 7am) or "independence" or whatever u wanna call it but its all relevant and dependent on whose perspective you are looking at it from. From my point of view, Yes someone like Talib or Doom is underground, but in the eyes of someone in the "magma", theyve made it! Anyway the point is you can't just judge a person or their comments by the terminology they use, you have to take their perspective and position in the industry into consideration as well. And you're right.. all this labeling IS ridiculous. I just had a long conversation with Pete Rock and 9th wonder about that tonight. At one point it was just hip hop, then somewhere around 95, 96... It was like you were one or the other. Pete Rock made a good point. that one summer where DeLa and someone else.. I think it was Biggie(cant remember..7am) dropped. It was like the line started to be drawn there and it just got worse progressively. The majority went one way, and the rest went the "other" I know that is a very "general" statement again but when I looked back at those years, there is actually some validity in it. Of course there were plenty of other factors but that point in time was definitely a turning point. For me personally, Underground was a way to describe ANYTHING u didnt hear in regular rotation on the radio (i.e. at 3pm!) which was up until a few years ago, MOST HIP HOP PERIOD!! U had to wait 4 mixshow on the weekend or stretch n bob, Jsmooth, dirty Dozen, Awes. 2, etc) (no 5'O clock free rides and top 8 at 8s and what not. Friday n Saturday was IT!) mind u this in in NY and NJ, where most of the "hip" stations were ... Anyway come to think of it, that description still works to a certain degree.. But its also mutated into a way to describe a certain "style" of hip hop and it makes no sense. Like "I dont rhyme like Jay or Nas or 50.. I spit that underground sh*t" .. wtf.. R u rhyming on a beat?.. ok then you're rapping...period! whether or not ur any good is another matter entirely, and your subject matter ain't makin u "underground" or not... though of course that can affect your "mainstream accesibility" but at the end of the day u doin the same thing as Jay, 50, Nas or anyone else sellin records..rapping.. stick to what u do, do it well and eventually with hustle...and talent... who knows... you might wake up one morning and be "mainstream". Perfect example.. Jay-Z freestyles with Big L and Natural Elements.. on Stretch/Bob.. and Underground Railroad and this was what.. 95,96?? not that long ago. At that point in time they were all in the same struggle. Some make it, some don't, and some sadly never get the chance. R.I.P. L.

sorry 2 be so long winded. I have a hard time being concise when I'm tired. But i had to respond when I came across that tho.

1 more.. mediocrity is rampant?!???!?! all i said is there is sum wack sh*t out there.. and umm last i checked.. there was.. and still is. Pretty much the reason why many try and few succeed in MANY aspects of life... not necesarrily passing judgement on a specific person or situation, just stating the facts.

I think that Defari is just not intelligent enough to understand what Aesop Rock and everybody else on that scene is talking about because he calls it weird. Yeah it's weird, but you have to understand what the hell they are talking about to understand WHY it's weird.

jb wrote:
>95, 96... It was like you were one or the other. Pete Rock made >a good point. that one summer where DeLa and someone else.. >I think it was Biggie(cant remember..7am) dropped. It was like >the line started to be drawn there and it just got worse >progressively.

I think you're talking about the summer of '96 when Nas (Illmatic) and De La Soul (Stakes Is High) dropped on the same day. I remember going to the record store with a group of friends. They all bought Illmatic and I got Stakes Is High. De La condemned alot of the crossover gangsta, materilistic shit that was getting really popular. From then on I became the underground "true" hip-hop snob. I avoided all the jiggy shit. Tracks like "Stakes Is High" were pivotal in making clear distinctions between hip-hop music and mainstream rap.

-I'm sick of bitches shakin' asses
-I'm sick of talkin' about blunts,
-Sick of Versace glasses,
-Sick of slang,
-Sick of half-ass awards shows,
-Sick of name brand clothes.
-Sick of R&B bitches over bullshit tracks,
-Cocaine and crack
-Which brings sickness to blacks,
-Sick of swoll' head rappers
-With their sicker-than raps
-Clappers and gats
-Makin' the whole sick world collapse
-The facts are gettin' sick
-Even sicker perhaps
-Stickabush to make a bundle to escape this synapse
Dove - "Stakes Is High"

Which summed the majority of content of Nas' It Was Written and a lot of albums which were getting most of the airtime and attention (BET, MTV HOT 97). Later that year tracks like "What They Do" by The Roots reinforced this line. The huge commercial succes of Biggie and Bad Boy with Life After Death and songs like "Mo' Money Mo' Problems" with their shiny suits and bling really started to polarize hip-hop in two camps of Mainstream (Cars, Clothes, Cash and Hoes) vs Underground (Consicousness, Backpacks, and Hip-Hop culture).

In hindsight all of this labeling was pretty stupid. I missed out on a lot of good music because I thought underground rap was somehow better. I didn't listen to Reasonable Doubt until '99 which now is one of my favorite Albums. Now I just look at like music. Either its good or its not. I prefer substance in my lyrics but I think Devin is just a relevant as Common.

I'm not tring to make a specific point I just agree with jb that '96 was definetly a big turning point.

well said! and yes thats the summer!

maybe im wrong but i thought ILLMATIC came out in '93?

I meant "It Was Written". If you kept reading I actually corrected myself later on.
But thanks for pointing that out Smarty Art. :)

no problem.

whatever white or black we are not in 1800 please we are are 2004 ok!!!
aesop,slug and others are mc's remember....for every one

DEFARI IZ A STUPID IDIOT DAT NEED 2 GET SUM SKILLZ FAST

Why cant people just come to the realisation that race,color ect is nothing?,people need to erase the whole race concept and form as one - "The Human Race" P.S, Just block out those GLITTER coverd chains,shiney tshirts and all that other bling bling BULLSHIT!! haha....One Love - CJ

No one disses RSE and walks away with a mouth full of teeth.

f*ck y'all

It's funny how all of you people are talking about white rappers and giving always examples of beastie boys, eminem, slug, sage francis and aesop rock. The problem is that Slug is actually half white and half black (what is commonly unknown to white internet backpackers), he is a son of white women and us native black man. Eminem wouldn't be known if not the help of dr dre. Let us be honest, eminem is known only cause he is white and got dr dre behind his back. Aesop rock is popular nowadays only cause he is hiding under his lyrics, he hasn't been facing racial problems like most of the black rappers have. Take the fact that rap is not only about lyrics, beats and rhymes are very important. Of course i will not listen to lil jon and chingy but i will also listen to any white mcee only cause they are underground and have lyrics. To white man it's easy to make dope lyrics and sell it for stupid 15 years old childs. And i know it cause i'm white. Funny that all of those hh white fans are always talking that there have always been white people in hh. If you are so certain that white rappers are so dope then why people talk about white and black rappers. I will tell you why, cause the difference exist. Quantity doesn't mean quality and even when there will be millions of white rappers selling records, that still doesn't mean they should do it. It's easy for a white man to talk about equil in races. I want to remind you about the times when white people where dissing blacks for stupid monkeys that are only capable of making rap. Now the same persons are not only trying to rap but are also dissing white mcees. And the most funny thing is that people like them don't even listen to other things than shit like sage francis so how can they know the truth. They don't know that the roots of rap came from rock, blues, soul, jazz, funk and electro. As i've been talking with many so called white "rap fans" they don't even know who KRS-ONE and Boogie Down Production, Large Pro, Main Source, Masters of Ceremony, Stetsasonic, Just-Ice, Kool Moe Dee are, Slick Rick, Black Moon, 2 Black 2 Strong, Poor Righteous Teachers, King Sun, Doug e Fresh are. I could name more but i think that some people should get the picture now. Bah they don't even know who kurt Mantronik is (remember that he is white). The misseducation is music is huge nowadays. White people don't know that all the genres they are listening to came from blacks like rock, blues, jazz, soul, rnb. And the most funny thing is that i see people listening to anticon saying that they are on another level and tupac is wack. I'm white but i'm also sick of white superior and misseducation. You are calling me a racist cause i see that black people can be better than whites in some things ?? All people must forget about Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon, Stalin etc but i can't say that black people are better in something. Fuck you posers, remember that black people didn't create slavery and killed most of the indian population and also fronted on cultures to believe in fucking jesus. Think about it.

woah there buddy. calm down.

I think you need to consider the fact that you are stereotyping "all those white hip hop fans" in the same way that a lot of white people stereotype about "all those black rappers".

Getting angry at an amorphous mass of people isn't going to change a damn thing. Take a look in the mirror. You are angry and hostile. I would rather hang out with some ignorant Anticon fans than an angry and hostile music history snob like yourself.

By the way, Kurtis Mantronik's birth name was Kurtis Khaleel, and he was from Jamaica. I'm not sure if that means he was white, arab, or jewish. Does it matter?

ok, i just wanted to add something to this convo... i'm an aussie hip hop head, and down here it aint got nothin to do with colour or what not... in the hip hop scene, but cats surrounding us have their opinions, in basic... hop's bout what you can bring to it, what you know, how you speak, live, etc. sure the majority r black, and it is known as a black culture, however, you hav to realise ther is also a commercial image being subliminally printed into alot of brains, hence the hate for commercial music... to the heads it's got no significance, because it means NOTHING, and underground usually duz... at the moment racism is at a high in hop... and thass chilled... hip hop is about individual opinion, if it wasn't we'd all b rappin bout the same shit
peace...

When I started cheking out hip hop artists like AESOP,and also works by producers like E-LP ,it wasent because of some statas as underground or white or black (the first time i heard Aesop i thought he was black..not like it matters)but my choice was based on skills.I also know that when i talk to so called "hiphop fans" thay no nothing of Scott la Rock, BDP or others like Erick B, Rakim,Audio Two, Biz Markie,Pete rock,or CL Smooth.When i buy a new artist's CD or lp,most times I have never heard of them before. Some times i end up with some varv lame stuff, but when i go home with something thas none of my friends hav heard, a true gem, its not money wasted, its hip hop earned.

anticon. is the best record label ever. its progress. Music needs it. Im sick of hearing the same 50 cent song remade by a different artist.

hey waz up

kurtis mantronik half black half arab all jamaican

Wait, I thought rap and hip hop was abut being innovative and giving a culture their own music that represents themselves.

So why does all hip hop have to be either white or black?

It's so fucking stupid to try to say that all black people like a "thuggish, gun toting, club anthem, bling bling" type rap, while whites love emo rap like atmosphere.

I am white, I hate atmosphere, and I listen to alot of black artists too.

This is one stupid ass topic.

black people stink

Kinetix above said it best:
"This is one stupid ass topic."

And Erid said it worst:
"White people also seem to respond more positively to introspection and whining"

That is, no punches pulled, one of the all-time dumbest fucking things I've ever read.

Holy shit. Fuck you for attaching "whining" to a color of skin.